VisorCentral.com - What age is Right for Giving Kid a Cell

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Posted by Alli on 01-19-2004 12:52 AM:

FYI, Woof: Luxury items are defined strictly as non-essential items. If you can't make it through a week without watching your soaps, I'm terribly sorry. There's this really cool old fashioned thingy available in most metropolitan areas; we call it a "newspaper." Try one some day, you just might find it edifying.

I won't bother explaining the difference between apples and oranges.

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Posted by Toby on 01-19-2004 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
As for emergency phones, if I remember correctly, all telcos are required to connect every 911 call they receive, regardless of the contractual situation of the phone. So, if you want, you can keep your old, disconnced, phone in your glovebox and use it at anytime to dial 911.

No, you miss my point. It was that ISTR there are devices similar to which you mentioned already existing and not solely devoted to 911.

Posted by ToolkiT on 01-19-2004 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft

As I said, the only way to keep boys and girls from being alone with each other is to lock them in a closet, SEPARATELY! There is nothing any parent can do to keep them from eventually being alone together. I know. I was there. Been there, done that!
I consider giving her a cellphone to be parental care, because it will give her another way out if she would somehow find herself in an uncomfortable situation. It would pay for itself many times over if only once she needed to dial 911, or call me and say, "Daddy, I need you."

The only other option is to give her a gun. Come to think of it...

How about learning her not to get in risky situations and learning her self defense incase she ends up in on anyway...
A gun and a cell phone is a false sense of security.. by the time she needs it and has gotten hold of it, it is pobably too late..
But the best way is to avoid situations that need either sollution..

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Posted by ToolkiT on 01-19-2004 01:52 AM:

Re: Re: Awesome post Miradu, good points!

quote:
Originally posted by whmurray
Lighten up guys. This is only about toys, not morality. What have we worked for if we have to justify giving it to our kids?

Says who?
This topic was started with a morality question linked to cell phones...

You dont have to justify anything, the TS asked a question and people give their input..
The only thing you have to justify to is your own conciense..If you think you did the right thing fine..
This discussion merely is that.. a discussion..

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Posted by southbound747 on 01-19-2004 06:28 AM:

Re: Awesome post Miradu, good points!

quote:
Originally posted by Woof

Damn glad I don't live in "lower Alabama" where tv and phone are considered luxury items. I'm not sure I want to hear how you feel about window glass and indoor plumbing.
Woof

lol....
times change. society changes. my 8-year old has my old treo 90. he started using a pc at 2 years old with programs that had a super sized cursor/arrow that worked withb the mouse. this is his generation.

i jusy pray my teeneager doesn't saddle me with a huge bill from the account we share with his cell phone. but hey, he is so much a better kid than i was at his age. i really can't complain...

my 8-year old already wants wireless email....like daddy has.

what are you gonna do. this is their world...

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Posted by thppfft on 01-19-2004 11:15 AM:

I was going to say a lot of stuff, but I'll just say this:

The right age to give a kid a cellphone ( or anything else ) is when:
1. It is in the best interest of the childs development.
2. It will help you be a better parent.

Only you can answer these questions.

Saying any more will cross the line into how one should raise a child, which is Off Topic for the Off Topic Forum.

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Posted by whmurray on 01-19-2004 12:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
I was going to say a lot of stuff, but I'll just say this:

The right age to give a kid a cellphone ( or anything else ) is when:
1. It is in the best interest of the childs development.
2. It will help you be a better parent.

Only you can answer these questions.

Saying any more will cross the line into how one should raise a child, which is Off Topic for the Off Topic Forum.

Then let me try to find my answer.

One of my nephews, who came into my life when he was four and I was four and sixty, once identified me as the one "who gives presents for no reason."

The original question in this thread suggested that the issue was age appropriateness. The idea that toys should be "age appropriate" is only about a generation old. It is really more about product liability in a litigious society than about children or toys. The implication is that if I give a toy to a child at too early an age, that somehow or another, it will do harm. While almost any artifact can be misused, for most the utility overwhelms any potential for misuse.

When I consider the idea of "best interest of the child's development," I am reminded of the quote attributed to Mary Calderone about sex edcuation: "You cannot tell children too much about sex," she said. "If you try, they will tune you out." Children develop, we do not develop them. They are little miracles that we get joy from watching grow. They are like flowers; we put them in a relatively benign environment, give them a little nourishment, then stand back and watch the miracle. If the language suggests that we develop them, then the language misleads us. If we believe it, we are victims of our own hubris.

My sister, grandmother of that nephew, points out that this is a very difficult age in which to be a parent; that society projects all kinds of expectations on parents that those of earlier generations did not have to cope with. It is clear that those here take their responsibility very seriously but we should be careful not to take it so seriously that we miss the miracle.

We are like my nephew who, at four, had already concluded that presents were so scarce that one received them only on special occasions, that the occasion justified the present rather than that the present justified the occasion. I think we over complicate the problem. Why can it not be as simple as whether the child wants it and whether I want to give it?

Thus, on reflection, I simply reject the premise of the question. It is rooted in the fear that if we give the child something at the wrong age, somehow or another, in a manner that we must struggle even to imagine, we may do harm.

After participating in the thread with interest, I have concluded that the age of the child has less to do with it than the age in which we live and the age that we have attained. We live in a time and place of wealth and plenty. While many of us take it for granted, I can report that it was barely imagined when I was a child, hard to imagine for those in other places. I am at an age in life when one is sufficiently secure that one finds one's joy in giving. I have reached the awareness that giving put off, for example, "until the child is old enough," may be giving foregone. Perhaps most important, I have reached the age where I trust the miracle to do its thing and have surrendered any illusion that I control it.

Posted by MarkEagle on 01-19-2004 03:05 PM:

I think the bottom line here has nothing to do with toys, or morality, or whatever else you want to label it. It has EVERYTHING to do with what we, as parents, determine is in the best interest of our children, in our own particular situations.

IMHO, unless you observe me abusing or neglecting my children, you have no right to tell me how I should raise them, as I have no right to tell you. If you feel your child needs a cell phone, then so be it. That doesn't mean mine does (or doesn't). These are decisions each of us has to make based on our own circumstances.

Parenting is quite possibly the hardest job in the world. It's vastly different from when I was a child, and when my kids are parents, it will be different from what it is today. Each generation faces new and different challenges that the previous one didn't have.

Technology advances aside, equiping our children with information is far more powerful and productive than giving them "devices". Don't get me wrong, the right combination of the two can be advantagous, but it all boils down to information... we need to communicate with our kids (and not just dictate). "My house, my rules" only goes so far. We all want our children to respect and trust us, and we need to do the same with them.

As for the issue at hand, I don't NEED a cell phone. I could live perfectly well without one (and did for the better part of 40 years). Therefore, I see no reason why my kids NEED one. That doesn't mean I can't justify them having one. At present, OUR circumstances are such that they can live without one, though there are times when I'd like them to have one.

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Posted by whmurray on 01-19-2004 04:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle

As for the issue at hand, I don't NEED a cell phone. I could live perfectly well without one (and did for the better part of 40 years). Therefore, I see no reason why my kids NEED one. That doesn't mean I can't justify them having one. At present, OUR circumstances are such that they can live without one, though there are times when I'd like them to have one. [/B]

We understand that. However, the question raised was not about necessity, it was about the "the appropriate age" with the implication being that age is the significant issue.

There is a clear thread within this thread that suggests that the test is need. Underlying that is an assumption that modern conveniences, toys, like Treos are for adults only while children must be limited to necessities. Cell phones are consumables; I have a whole drawer full of them, many of which still work. Toys are for children.

I suggest that it is not about age or need but only about what the child and the parent, the recipient and the donor, agree on. It is more about the convenience of the family then the needs of the child.

In any case, a question about what are admittedly toys does not warrant all of this defensive moralizing. Do as you please; I assure you that the rest of us will.

Posted by MarkEagle on 01-19-2004 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by whmurray
We understand that. However, the question raised was not about necessity, it was about the "the appropriate age" with the implication being that age is the significant issue.

Then there is no right or wrong answer to that question!

quote:
Toys are for children.

Not!!! I have plenty of toys... things I use solely for my personal amusement. They add no value to the quality of my life, nor are they things that I need.

quote:
I suggest that it is not about age or need but only about what the child and the parent, the recipient and the donor, agree on. It is more about the convenience of the family then the needs of the child.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

quote:
Do as you please; I assure you that the rest of us will.

Exactly... what works for me and my family may or may not work for the next one. You need to look at the whole picture and make the decision that works best for you, in your particular situation.

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Posted by Architect on 01-19-2004 04:46 PM:

Maturity is when you already "KNOW" what Mom and Dad would say.

At 45, I often "hear" my parents voice (sometimes coming out of my own mouth!) when thinking of various issues....My 7 yr old may need to hear it from me in real-time.

I remember the day after I turned 18 when I was with a group who wanted to (do something I was not comfortable with - hey it was the 70's)...and I was scared to say no because I wanted to be popular...and the boy I liked had picked me up, and I did not have a way to leave, and I went along with the group. As it turned out, the only bad thing that happened is that I threw up (how could people smoke that stuff???!!!) and ended up disgrasing myself anyway...

Anyway, I truly believe that, if I'd had a cell, I would have called Mom for that always-promised-ride-home-with-no-questions-asked.

I want my daughter to learn to make her own decisions, I just want calling Mom to be one of the possibilities.

A side note, a couple of months ago my Step-daughter, 22 and graduating from college, got pulled over for her first speeding ticket, she called me in tears as the cop ran her info,....goes to show that even young adults need a way to hear a parent saying "it's okay - just cry and try to look REAL PITIFUL and maybe you'll get a warning...LOL) Made me feel great to be there when she needed me.

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Posted by thppfft on 01-19-2004 04:59 PM:

whmurray: You're right. The question is invalid, thus my answer is also.

All we can do is provide a safe enviroment for them to grow in. I think that's what I was getting at when I said all our ancestors needed was wild game, fur, a cave, and fire.

As long as we do our best so that the child doesn't need to see a doctor ( physical or mental ), and that child is socially functional, we have done our job.

Now to start another war of the words...

I cringe when I here someone say, "It was good enough for my father, so it's good enough for me", or "I didn't need it as a child, so my child doesn't need it."

Here's what I did without as a child, and I grew up just fine:
Cellphone, computer, internet, car, college education, married parents, money, and hopefully one day, AIDS vaccination. Should I raise my child without such things?

As a child, my grandmother grew up just fine without electricty, gas, running water, or smallpox vaccination. Should she have rasied my mother without those things?

I'm not saying that we should automatically give children everything. I just think that we should make our decisions based on todays world, not the world of 30 years ago.

But then again... childred (and adults) need nothing more than wild game, fur, a cave, and fire. Everything else in life is just gravy.

As my mother once said, we are most fortunate to be living in this country at this time in history.

Look at us, arguing over these petty issues while there are children staving in Africa, with both parents dead from AIDS. We should feel luck that we have the LUXURY to do so.

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Posted by thppfft on 01-19-2004 05:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
Now to start another war of the words...

I cringe when I here someone say, "It was good enough for my father, so it's good enough for me", or "I didn't need it as a child, so my child doesn't need it."

...

I'm not saying that we should automatically give children everything. I just think that we should make our decisions based on todays world, not the world of 30 years ago.

I wish to clarify...

I think we can all agree that there is no one right way to raise a child, and that every family is different. Ergo, just because your parents denied you something as a child, that does not automatically mean that you should deny it from your child. The relationship that you have with your child is different than the one you have with your parents.

Oh yea... and try not to live vicariously.

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Posted by MarkEagle on 01-19-2004 05:45 PM:

Re: Maturity is when you already "KNOW" what Mom and Dad would say.

quote:
Originally posted by Architect
At 45, I often "hear" my parents voice (sometimes coming out of my own mouth!) when thinking of various issues....

Funny how that works, isn't it?

quote:
I want my daughter to learn to make her own decisions, I just want calling Mom to be one of the possibilities.

I think it's important for my children to be able to make many of their own decisions, or at least have a reasonable say in them. As parents, we've tried to give them information (both pro and con) that they can use to make those decisions.

I don't worry about my 14 yr old daughter being alone with a boy, per se. I worry that we haven't given her enough information to make the right decision in that situation.

In this context, I fail to see how a cell phone is a solution. Even if she has one at that moment, is she going to be able to use it? Will her suitor look at it as a threat to himself? Will attempting to use it lead to other consequences that I'd really rather not think about?

The same goes for the youngster that "disappears" at the mall. To say the phone could be used to contact me and let me know my child has been found is ludicrous... to me, that's irresponsible parenting if you can't keep tabs on your kids (yes, I HAVE lost my kids before and immediately went into panic mode, so even I'm not an angel

). If they are carrying a cell phone, but are "taken" by someone with less-than-honorable intentions, what good does it do then? The phone would surely be one of the first things tossed aside.

quote:
it's okay - just cry and try to look REAL PITIFUL and maybe you'll get a warning...

Did it work?

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Posted by Shin_Kudo on 01-22-2004 11:43 PM:

My little brother, who's 13, just got his first cell. It's a pretty nice phone, but that's because he got it on a two-for-one deal with my dad.

I got my first at 16, and it's bean dead for a few weeks, and I've really realized how hard living without it is.

My car broke down the other day. I wasn't far from home at all. If I had had a cell, I could have called somebody to drive me over to the nearby AutoZone and picked up a replacement for the easily available, inexpensive, part that was the problem.

It was fortunate for me that I'm a car freak, and had all my tools with me, because I was going to the junkyard for a part for another car. I had to spend an hour improvising repairs, followed by a drive, almost completely out of oil, with a smoking engine, to get the part and the oil I needed.

I have one issue with something a lot of people are saying, though. It's not an easy proposition to just "get a job" and buy a phone. I've been trying, completely unsuccessfully, for over a year to get a job, with no luck whatsoever. As a mere high school graduate, i'm no competition for the thousands of unemployed college grads flooding the job market. And I can't get a food job, because all of those are given to fluent spanish speakers, something I am not. All of my friends are in the same situation. There's simply no work.

Posted by whmurray on 01-23-2004 12:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Shin_Kudo

I have one issue with something a lot of people are saying, though. It's not an easy proposition to just "get a job" and buy a phone. I've been trying, completely unsuccessfully, for over a year to get a job, with no luck whatsoever. As a mere high school graduate, i'm no competition for the thousands of unemployed college grads flooding the job market. And I can't get a food job, because all of those are given to fluent spanish speakers, something I am not. All of my friends are in the same situation. There's simply no work.

At the turn of the last century half of the children over seven worked on the farm, some in mines, and some in factories and mills. Compulsory education laws were not to keep students in school but to force parents to let this valuable family cash commodity attend school at all.

In the late forties, when I was a teenager, there were still lots of jobs for teenagers. I worked bagging groceries, pumping gas, selling food, carrying messages, and working concessions and tickets in movie theaters. So did most of my friends and we loved it. A tiny fraction of my contemporaries graduated from college.

A computer with a fraction of the power of the one that I am using cost $2M. A GB of storage would fill a box car and take two years to read at rated speeds.

We were expected to pay for our recreation, clothes, transportation, and some food. A movie was $0.25, jeans and shirts $3.75 each, the street car was a dime, gas was $0.35 per gallon or $8.00 per tank, an American breakfast less than a $1-, an ice cream cone $0.10, a hamburger was $0.35, and a hot dog, with chili, was ) $0.15.

The minimum wage was $0.75. We paid $0.015 of the first dollar for social security but many students were exempted; we only paid on the first $3500 of income. Today the minimum wage is $5.15 and going up. The social security tax is $0.15 on the first dollar and we pay on the first $65K.

A computer with the power of all the computers in the world then costs $500-, a GB is the size of a fifty cent piece, costs a $1.20 and we can read it in less than a minute.

If you do the arithmetic, you will understand why there are no jobs for you, in spite of the fact that you know tens times the math, science, literature, and other special knowledge as we did.

We pay for your recreation, clothes, transportation and $5.00 for a Big Mac, fries, and a cola. Most of you finish high school, many of you go to college, and the elite among you go to graduate or professional school.

But, if you want a cell phone, get a job! Your parents have great memories and no perspective at all. Go figure.

Posted by Alli on 01-23-2004 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by whmurray

We pay for your recreation, clothes, transportation and $5.00 for a Big Mac, fries, and a cola. Most of you finish high school, many of you go to college, and the elite among you go to graduate or professional school.

But, if you want a cell phone, get a job! Your parents have great memories and no perspective at all. Go figure.

Bravo! Well said.

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Posted by Shin_Kudo on 01-23-2004 02:53 AM:

I fail to see what your point is. It appears you are saying that the lack of jobs is due to the fact that the relationship between wages and the price of goods has changed for the worse? I already stated the reason for lack of jobs, a shortage of positions coupled by a surplus of job-seekers.

Also, I fail to see where I said anything about my parents. What makes you think the "have great memories and no perspective". What is that even supposed to mean? Am I to take that as an insult toward my parents, who you know nothing about?

Then, you close it with, "get a job!"? After the fact that even you said there were none? Despite the fact that no one without serious connections can get a job anywhere in LA?

Posted by ToolkiT on 01-23-2004 02:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Shin_Kudo

Then, you close it with, "get a job!"? After the fact that even you said there were none? Despite the fact that no one without serious connections can get a job anywhere in LA?

Write a letter to the Govenator about that...

Economic reality still is that if you dont have a job you shouldnt expect luxery items... and yes cell phones are a luxery...

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Posted by snerdy on 01-23-2004 03:36 AM:

After some thought

I want to change my answer to "No one should be giving cell phones to their kids until they are at least 30." I mean, unless you were a teen parent, your kid will be roughly 10 when you are 30... so, yeah -- unless you have exceptional kids (like southbound747's kid -- that's very cool, by the way) then you shouldn't be giving them cell phones until you are old enough to be responsibile about the situation.

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