VisorCentral.com - I just lost a whole 8m Springboard

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor Prism (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=19)
-- I just lost a whole 8m Springboard (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=11603)

Posted by yardie on 02-08-2001 12:59 PM:

Why little Sympathy

Pixelator:

I think that the folks here have little sympathy for you because of the fact that you had the whole visor rigged (overclock with HACKS). If you weren't using any of these and suddenly things went bacd, we would have been more sympathetic. Users who overclock their Visors and add hacks do so at their own risks. Good luck with your WinCE device.

For the guy with the erased backup module, DONT keep the module in the Visor when you perform a hard reset. IN fact, its not a good idea to keep the module in at all times.

Posted by Jon Etkins on 02-08-2001 03:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pixelator
Strange then, how WinCE devices have no problem writing, deleting, copying and updating to Compact Flash RAM from within applications...

Not strange at all, really. Wince, being a cut-down version of a PC OS, knows how to handle disk drives, which is how a CF card appears to the device. PalmOS, being specifically designed for devices that have no such hardware, does not.

Can Wince write directly to flash memory (not CF), or does it suffer the same limitation as PalmOS? Or do Wince devices even HAVE flash?

Posted by afabio on 02-08-2001 07:00 PM:

Pix:
I'm an electrical engineer, and I know all about overclocking and the problems it causes. The stray capacitances and resistances of the springboard slot and traces on the boards make excellent filters. This causes the perfect digital square wave to "round off" and look more and more like a sine wave. The higher the frequency of the clock, the more pronounced the effect. Eventually, the flash chip in your card will not get the correct data due to this problem.

There's your reason. I'm sorry, but the crash is most likely your fault due to the overclocking.

-Adam

Posted by Toby on 02-08-2001 08:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pixelator
Unless like me, you had an old version of the software that didn't have the feature.

Yes, we covered that on Usenet. Now that you mention it again, though, why would you be surprised if software written before the Visor even existed might support all of its features. This points clearly to the "User Expectations" thing which I mentioned.

quote:
The file in question, sure. The entire module? No.

Why would it be beyond the realms of possibility?

quote:
Does your entire hard drive blank every time you get a corrupted file transfer? No.

Ummm...how long have you been working with PCs? No, it doesn't happen every time, but it's certainly not impossible, and I've witnessed it a time or two.

quote:
Neither should a file being moved by FileMover. I do not consider that a pipe dream by any means.

No, it's not a pipe dream to think that it shouldn't happen regularly, but it certainly is an unreasonable expectaion for it to never happen. We are talking about electronic devices here. For all you know, you got hit by the random effects of solar flares. I might never happen again as long as you live.

quote:
Which implies that I am liking the Palm world less.

Umm...well, if you're going buy a PocketPC device because you dislike some characteristics of the Palm world, then yeah, you are liking it less. This does not equate with not liking it at all, which is what your assertion that I said was.

quote:
Again, I will state that the Palm world in general has been very good to me. But I've painted myself into a corner with the Prism and with this ultimate failing, I am sick of the rinky-dink quality in both hardware and software -- Especially considering the price point.

Well, I can't say it enough then evidently...have fun in the PocketPC world. What do you expect us to do? Beg and plead Handspring's case with you? Not bloody likely. I'm not beholden to them for anything. My Visor serves me fine. Yours doesn't. Buy something else, and quit looking for sympathy and understanding which you really don't deserve.

quote:
And I feel especially qualified to be fickle when I am plunking down $450 for a handheld computing device.

Then be fickle. Just don't expect anyone else to cowtow to your fickleness.

quote:
Unless the m505 possesses a more sophisticated file transfer system, costs under $550 and has at least a modicum of improvements over the previous Palm devices to set it apart graphically and capability-wise, I doubt my enjoyment of my E-125 (or whatever I get) will be diminished. Many of the rumored capabilities of the m505 (playing movies, more efficient memory storage, 16-bit color screen) have been present on the Cassiopeia E-series for literally years.

Then get a Cassiopeia. Look, if you want a PocketPC, get a PocketPC. If you want a Palm, get a Palm. I just don't see what you think you're gaining by all this.

quote:
Only on the Visors/Palms. On a PocketPC, Compact Flash and SD cards can be accessed just like system RAM. On my E-100, I can write, copy and erase files from within applications such as Pocket Artist.

Compact flash != flash. Those two are accessed like a disk drive with all of the potential consequences of such. They have a FAT table which is just as open to corruption as a hard disk.

quote:
Hello, my name is Bill. Welcome to the thread. Since you've obviously just suffered a lapse of short term memory, allow me to invite you to re-read the last couple of messages from me on this subject clearly stating that "looking elsewhere" is exactly what I am doing...

No, it seems more like you're lingering on at the funeral thinking that someone's going to tell you the corpse came back to life. If you want something elsewhere, look elsewhere. I'm not going to break out the defibrillator for no reason.

quote:
Uh, how does it conflict?

Because you originally stated you had hacks running of the module. You later recanted this obviously.

quote:
None of my hacks were on the module. Nobody can really state with any authority how Afterburner could have caused a compression failure or even an interruption of the transfer. It never happened before. More likely, it was an artifact of the module being almost full and the FileMover software failing to check compression routines properly.

*sigh* The engineers design the Visor and peripherals to work within certain specs. They should not fail when they are within those specs. When you overclock, all bets are off because you went beyond the bounds of the design. You may luck out and never have a problem, or you may experience random problems at inconvenient times. To try and blame anything that happened on an overclocked system on the manufacturer is shirking your own culpability for trying to "improve" on their design.

quote:
That's charming. Well, I suppose that's as scientific as you can get in the face of the fact that it's never happened before, so feel free to be rude.

The fact that it's never happened before is irrelevant. You were tempting fate in the first place and should consider yourself lucky that you only got burned once or twice.

quote:
It never did before.

Irrelevant.

quote:
It was set to run at 42MHz, and allowed beaming and syncing with no problem. If you can tell me exactly why it would have caused a problem, feel free.

Because you exceeded design specs.

quote:
Otherwise, you're just looking like an ass blaming my use of an overclocker for whatever problems I might have.

No, I'm looking like someone approaching the problem rationally. You're looking like a petulant buffoon blaming your problems on the manufacturer when you were trying to make their machine do something it wasn't designed to do.

quote:
Sorry, I'm not going to sit here and let you blame ME for losing all that data.

Sorry, but it was your fault. Accept it and move on.

quote:
But do remind me to do the same for you the next time you have a similar loss.

First of all, I don't run any of my hardware beyond the factory specs. Second of all, I wouldn't be blaming them if I was and something went wrong.

quote:
If you actually read the Usenet thread, you'd see that it wasn't on the module after all. And again, my Prism ran FINE with AB set @ 42MHz.

I did obviously, since I replied to you there as well. Also, if your Prism was really running fine, we'd not be having this discussion.

quote:
Congratulations, you are now officially behaving as a child would who has been told his favorite toy isn't as good as he thought.

Sorry, but you're simply incorrect. I'm not the one stamping his feet trying to blame his own mistakes on someone else.

quote:
Must be ME, yes?

That about sums it up.

quote:
Can't possibly be the FileMover or the compression of data. Yep, I broke my own module and I deserve my data loss.

One more time for the cheap seats...YES! You were exceeding engineer's specs and paid the consequences for it.

quote:
The "User Error" here is that I picked the Prism and module to begin with and left my E-100 at home.

OK, then go back to Casio. More power to you.

quote:
The "User Expectation" was certainly at fault insofar as I expected it to FUNCTION PROPERLY.

Yes, you expected it to function properly even though you were operating it beyond the bounds of its design.

quote:
Sort of like my other failed "User Expectation" of my fellow Visor owners being sympathetic to my situation rather than pointing a finger of blame at my 'reckless' use of an overclocker as the cause apparent of the problem.

You expected sympathy posting here with an attitude like that? Think again, obviously.

Posted by dick-richardson on 02-08-2001 09:30 PM:

We're all out to get you, Pixelator. Can you hear us breathing?

VC is actually a very tolerant board compared to most. Most people don't tolerate pissing and moaning when someone doesn't get his/her way. What exactly were you looking for when you posted originally? BTW, bashing a product before selling it just doesn't work very well. I have a car for sale, but I just pissed on the driver's seat and shot it twice. Any takers?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by pixelator on 02-09-2001 12:30 AM:

Re: Why little Sympathy

"Rigged with HACKS..." So because I had ONE program speeding up my device 20%, it's okay to blame it on me wether or not you have any substantive proof that it's what caused the failure.

IMHO, using the 8M Flash module is in itself a risk without using the latest Backup Buddy... Since Handspring obviously needs to iron out the inability of FileMover to overcome a transfer interruption and they do not provide module backup out of the box (you have to buy $30 in software to do that).

b

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Pixelator:

I think that the folks here have little sympathy for you because of the fact that you had the whole visor rigged (overclock with HACKS). If you weren't using any of these and suddenly things went bacd, we would have been more sympathetic. Users who overclock their Visors and add hacks do so at their own risks. Good luck with your WinCE device.

For the guy with the erased backup module, DONT keep the module in the Visor when you perform a hard reset. IN fact, its not a good idea to keep the module in at all times.

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by pixelator on 02-09-2001 12:36 AM:

Out to get me, no. Out to defend your beloved Visors at the cost of being insensitive and helpful (with some constructive and informative contributors excluded, obviously)... Apparently yes.

You can use all the analogies and sarcasm you like, but in the end, it was the FileMover that corrupter my Springboard. Not me. If that's "pissing and moaning" because I "didn't get my way" to you, then I say you're pissing and moaning that I'm one of a large number of people totally dissatisfied with the product and you don't like anyone making waves. That's really too bad.

According to you and several others, my Prism is in perfect condition. Why shouldn't someone buy it when it was my 'abject stupidity' that brought about the error? You guys are stumbling over each other to make snide comments and not recognizing the contradiction.

I hope you get someone more understanding and helpful than you are the next time you lose months worth of data on your PC or other computing device...

b

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
We're all out to get you, Pixelator. Can you hear us breathing?

VC is actually a very tolerant board compared to most. Most people don't tolerate pissing and moaning when someone doesn't get his/her way. What exactly were you looking for when you posted originally? BTW, bashing a product before selling it just doesn't work very well. I have a car for sale, but I just pissed on the driver's seat and shot it twice. Any takers?

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by pixelator on 02-09-2001 12:43 AM:

OK, so why doesn't this happen for anyone else or at any other time? It wasn't Afterburner. It was FileMover. There was less than a meg left on the thing and it was a memory related error message.

I realize it's impossible to think that the FileMover was at fault or that Handspring could've created a system that didn't corrupt the whole module when one file transfer went awry, but there it is.

b

quote:
Originally posted by afabio
Pix:
I'm an electrical engineer, and I know all about overclocking and the problems it causes. The stray capacitances and resistances of the springboard slot and traces on the boards make excellent filters. This causes the perfect digital square wave to "round off" and look more and more like a sine wave. The higher the frequency of the clock, the more pronounced the effect. Eventually, the flash chip in your card will not get the correct data due to this problem.

There's your reason. I'm sorry, but the crash is most likely your fault due to the overclocking.

-Adam

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by pixelator on 02-09-2001 01:18 AM:

This will be my last post on this thread. I hope you're all very proud of yourselves, several of you have behaved like absolute jerks. I have no other fancy descriptive to use - to blame someone for a broad-reaching failure because one of their selected programs MAY have caused an interruption in a file transfer is ludicrous. The least some of you vehement Visor owners could've done was to state your opinion and leave it at that. No, you have to rub someone's nose in something when you know they're upset over a considerable loss of time and effort and data. You should learn something about how to interact with people, although that's not likely to come to pass since the majority of the more verbose among you probably don't venture forth into the outside world a whole lot...

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

No, it's not a pipe dream to think that it shouldn't happen regularly, but it certainly is an unreasonable expectaion for it to never happen.

[/b]

I disagree. If I pay $450 and then almost $100 for a Prism with a Flash module, I do not feel it reasonable to expect it to wipe the module AT ALL if a transfer is interrupted.

quote:

Umm...well, if you're going buy a PocketPC device because you dislike some characteristics of the Palm world, then yeah, you are liking it less. This does not equate with not liking it at all, which is what your assertion that I said was.

My issue with your comment is this: You're unqualified to quantify how much I like the Palm world at all. If I find one thing I prefer on PPC, it doesn't mean I like one or the other better. I like both and believe it or not, the Visor Prism does not encompass the entirety of the 'Palm world'.

quote:

Well, I can't say it enough then evidently...have fun in the PocketPC world. What do you expect us to do? Beg and plead Handspring's case with you? Not bloody likely. I'm not beholden to them for anything. My Visor serves me fine. Yours doesn't. Buy something else, and quit looking for sympathy and understanding which you really don't deserve.

What begs more of a question is why you keep responding to this. I wasn't inviting my choice to debate. You don't have to keep saying the equivalent of "Don't let the door hit you on your way out."

And by the way, your analysis of wether I "deserve sympathy and understanding" is borderline psychotic. You have obviously far too much emotionally invested in your Visor (and this discussion).

quote:

Then be fickle. Just don't expect anyone else to cowtow to your fickleness.

WHY do you think I care? Again, for the umpteenth time, I am not presenting this position for you (or anyone else's) approval. You seem to be taking it personally, like I'm rejecting your daughter or something. Get over it. Because I don't want a Prism anymore doesn't make me fickle and it doesn't mean I am trying to make you 'cowtow' to same. Jeez man, you need help!

quote:

Then get a Cassiopeia. Look, if you want a PocketPC, get a PocketPC. If you want a Palm, get a Palm. I just don't see what you think you're gaining by all this.

And you think I want to gain anything? I was sharing my experience and my resulting decision. LOTS of people do this daily on this system. A normal person would say "Hmm, too bad. I think it was (or was not) due to ____. Good luck!" And that's it. But no... You and a couple of others have to somehow belittle me and blame me for everything - and even cast personal stones. What the hell?

quote:

Compact flash != flash. Those two are accessed like a disk drive with all of the potential consequences of such. They have a FAT table which is just as open to corruption as a hard disk.

And I never had my E-100 or E-115 do anything remotely like what happened with the Prism. Of course, you avoided my point - which was the fact that the PPC's handle and use CF better than the Visors handle Flash.[/quote][/b]

quote:

No, it seems more like you're lingering on at the funeral thinking that someone's going to tell you the corpse came back to life. If you want something elsewhere, look elsewhere. I'm not going to break out the defibrillator for no reason.

THEN SHUT UP and stop replying. I am, after this message. You can feel free to continue ranting, which I suspect you will do - - just that.

I was not about to allow you or anyone else to just blame me for what is quite obviously a design flaw in the FileMover without some defense. I'm done, no minds were changed, c'est la vie.

quote:

Because you originally stated you had hacks running of the module. You later recanted this obviously.

Obviously, BECAUSE I SAID IT MYSELF. I initially thought the hacks (of which only AB was active) were on the module. I was wrong. It has nothing to do with anything.

quote:

*sigh* The engineers design the Visor and peripherals to work within certain specs.

How the hell would you know, anyway? Are you a Handspring engineer?

quote:

They should not fail when they are within those specs. When you overclock, all bets are off because you went beyond the bounds of the design.

Overclocking is like many other applications that take over the system. It runs in the background. LOTS of things made for Visors and Palms "go beyond the bounds of the design."

quote:

You may luck out and never have a problem, or you may experience random problems at inconvenient times. To try and blame anything that happened on an overclocked system on the manufacturer is shirking your own culpability for trying to "improve" on their design.

Wether it was a lightning bolt, a particularly gaseous fart or Afterburner, the FileMover and Flash module should be set up in such a way that a file transfer interruption won't automatically corrupt the module. As has been reported by others here and on Usenet, that's usually the outcome of such an event. THAT is what I am taking issue with. Naturally, you'll ignore that point.

quote:

The fact that it's never happened before is irrelevant. You were tempting fate in the first place and should consider yourself lucky that you only got burned once or twice.

As I said before, I tempted fate by using the thing at all.

"It was set to run at 42MHz, and allowed beaming and syncing with no problem. If you can tell me exactly why it would have caused a problem, feel free."

quote:

Because you exceeded design specs.

Again, I exceeded design specs by putting any software on it at all. Some games tax the system quite a bit. 16-bit color itself is beyond the original Palm architecture... As is color in general (which is why color Palms run so slowly). Your logic holds no water.

quote:

No, I'm looking like someone approaching the problem rationally. You're looking like a petulant buffoon blaming your problems on the manufacturer when you were trying to make their machine do something it wasn't designed to do.

If it wasn't designed to do it, why does it do it? "What the machine was designed to do" is entirely relative and makes about as much sense as blaming users for ANY problem because they did ANYTHING with it.

quote:

Sorry, but it was your fault. Accept it and move on.

No. It was my fault in your opinion - not in mine. If you took off your Visor colored glasses for a second and looked at my actual point, you might see my side of the argument. But no, you're too busy calling me names and pointing the finger. Sort of like standing and laughing at someone when they trip and fall on the sidewalk saying "You idiot, you should've looked where you were going."

quote:

First of all, I don't run any of my hardware beyond the factory specs. Second of all, I wouldn't be blaming them if I was and something went wrong.

And just what are the "factory specs" for running software? Because that's what we're discussing. Software controlling hardware.

quote:

I did obviously, since I replied to you there as well. Also, if your Prism was really running fine, we'd not be having this discussion.

The Prism does run fine. It was the FILEMOVER and the MODULE that failed. Hello? Did I lose you again?

quote:

Sorry, but you're simply incorrect. I'm not the one stamping his feet trying to blame his own mistakes on someone else.

No, you're the one stamping their feet blaming me for my loss of data while performing a perfectly routine and oft-repeated data transfer. The ONLY added variable here was the lack of space on the module. But no, we're not going to pay any attention to that, because we're too busy putting the blame on Afterburner and myself. That's fine, I couldn't care less at this point.

quote:

One more time for the cheap seats...YES! You were exceeding engineer's specs and paid the consequences for it.

And what specs, again, were those? Is there a "You can't run this or that" spec sheet on Prisms? No. Where do you draw the line? Only overclockers? What about games that make harware calls? Video players? You really don't have the foggiest notion what you're talking about... Too busy claiming that any painting outside the lines is grounds for data loss and total blame. LOL...

quote:

OK, then go back to Casio. More power to you.

I never left, actually. You know, for someone who supposedly doesn't know why I mentioned it, you sure keep bringing it up.

quote:

Yes, you expected it to function properly even though you were operating it beyond the bounds of its design.

And I say the unit is designed to function outside those bounds. What happened when Visors went from 16MHz to 33MHz? Is the DragonballVZ itself running 'outside the bounds' of the module's design? FileMover? Ridiculous. Processor speed is not the issue here.

quote:

You expected sympathy posting here with an attitude like that? Think again, obviously.

At the onset, I had no attitude except that directed towards my data loss. You effectively interjected a personal attack theme and fingerpointing session. Congratulations.

Have fun with your Visor. I hope it returns a fraction of the foaming-mouth devotion you have shown it here today...

bye...

b

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by MelHerd on 02-09-2001 01:56 AM:

Stuff (no matter the price) will fail. Running overclocked with cause it to fail faster. You ran it outside of the design specs. Don't blame Handspring because they didn't test outside of the design specs. Most devices will tolerate some amount of overclocking (or abuse), but you shouldn't be surprised if something fails when it is overclocked (or abused).

"IMHO, using the 8M Flash module is in itself a risk without using the latest Backup Buddy... Since Handspring obviously needs to iron out the inability of FileMover to overcome a transfer interruption and they do not provide module backup out of the box (you have to buy $30 in software to do that)."

Wrong. You expected Handspring to iron out the inability of FileMover to overcome a transfer interruption WHILE OVERCLOCKING THE SYSTEM!

Why do you feel overclocking did not affect the system?

__________________
GreyWolf

Posted by dick-richardson on 02-09-2001 04:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pixelator
Out to get me, no. Out to defend your beloved Visors at the cost of being insensitive and helpful (with some constructive and informative contributors excluded, obviously)... Apparently yes.

What help do you need? Everything's been explained to you and you still piss and moan because things aren't going your way. If you can't handle criticism that's not our problem. If intolerance with someone posting that Handspring sucks because they can't make information on a flash module backup whenever they sync comes across as my being insensitive, oh well. It has been explained to you why overclocking will cause your problem, it's been explained to you why information on flash modules can't be backed up during a hotsync, and it's been explained to you that your ridiculous rantings and refusal to look at the information with a mote of realism tends to get grating after a while.

quote:
You can use all the analogies and sarcasm you like, but in the end, it was the FileMover that corrupter my Springboard. Not me. If that's "pissing and moaning" because I "didn't get my way" to you, then I say you're pissing and moaning that I'm one of a large number of people totally dissatisfied with the product and you don't like anyone making waves. That's really too bad.

It wasn't the FileMover that corrupted your system. It was AfterBurner. And I have no problem with someone "making waves." I rather enjoy someone who makes waves intelligently.People who piss and moan because they don't get pampered when they whine irritate me.

quote:
According to you and several others, my Prism is in perfect condition. Why shouldn't someone buy it when it was my 'abject stupidity' that brought about the error? You guys are stumbling over each other to make snide comments and not recognizing the contradiction.

There is no contradiction. Just the ones you create in your head. I never said no one should by your Prism. In fact I hope someone recognized the fact that it was in perfectly good condition and got it off you cheap. If you recall I said that bashing a product before you sell it isn't a good way to do business. That is a pure and simple fact. You are stumbling over yourself pissing and moaning and not reading the responses closely.

quote:
I hope you get someone more understanding and helpful than you are the next time you lose months worth of data on your PC or other computing device...

I will because when I post a problem I make sure I phrase it in such a way that people feel a little more compelled to help. I accept the fact that the problem may be my own fault. And most of all, I don't piss and moan if I don't like the responses I get.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Fat_Man on 02-09-2001 06:23 AM:

Actually

I think Pix may be right on the crash issue.

The reason that his module crashed was because he exceeded the amount that can be loaded into the module. The same thing happened to me a few days ago. It was pretty frustrating reloading everything back into the module. Luckily I did use back-up buddy and had a my module's data on file. However, although it was frustrating, I would strongly disagree that this was a valid reason to abandon Handspring or the Palm OS. I think the positives of the Visor and the Palm OS far outweighs the negatives and the minor inconveniences.

Pix, if you switch to a Pocket PC, how certain are you that this scenario would not happen? In my opinion, it has always been the universal law #1 that no electronically stored data are safe from crashes. Regardless if you have a Palm, a Handspring, a Pocket PC, or the most stable desk-top computer, crashes are inevitable and you are going to experience data lost sooner or later. Why do you think that they make back-up programs?

This leads to universal law #2 which is ALWAYS back-up electronic data. Use the backup buddy program the next time (and chances are there WILL BE a next time regardless of what PDA you have). So univeral law #3 naturally states that you should learn from your mistakes. Don't overload the the module and BACK IT UP!!

Now universal law #4: the perfect PDA does not exist. Pocket PC's, Palms, and the Handspring Visor all have some weaknesses. Yet I think despite a few inconveniences with my Visor, I remain very satisfy with my Platinum. To abandon an electronic device or platform on the first sign of inconvenience or malfunction will lead to one ultimate end --> unabomber.

[Edited by Fat_Man on 02-09-2001 at 01:39 AM]

__________________
Fat's

Posted by na2rboy on 02-09-2001 02:26 PM:

shoes

I think Pixelator is right here. It has been noted many places on the Net that if there is close to 8 megs of data on the module, the module/FileMover can corrupt your data--overclocked or not. If you were in his shoes, you would be just as pissed as he is that the module has that fault.

Posted by Toby on 02-12-2001 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pixelator
This will be my last post on this thread.

*sigh* One can only hope.

quote:
I hope you're all very proud of yourselves, several of you have behaved like absolute jerks.

Oh please. Pot...kettle...black.

quote:
I have no other fancy descriptive to use - to blame someone for a broad-reaching failure because one of their selected programs MAY have caused an interruption in a file transfer is ludicrous.

This is simply bulldung. The fact that you are totally ignoring the very reality of it suggests that even you know it's bulldung, and yet you're still trying to pass all the blame onto something else. Is it possible that there might be something wrong with Handspring's software? Yep. There will never be much of any way to conclusively point to that, though, since you weren't using their hardware and software as it was designed.

quote:
The least some of you vehement Visor owners could've done was to state your opinion and leave it at that.

Physician, heal thyself.

quote:
No, you have to rub someone's nose in something when you know they're upset over a considerable loss of time and effort and data.

No, some people tried to rationally point out that you were possibly the cause of your own problem. You evidently cannot accept this, and decided to throw an apparent tantrum.

quote:
You should learn something about how to interact with people,

The irony here is astounding...

quote:
although that's not likely to come to pass since the majority of the more verbose among you probably don't venture forth into the outside world a whole lot...

LOL This is really a trite form of ad hominem. At least throw something more original than "Get a life" about if all you're going to do is throw a hissy.

quote:
I disagree. If I pay $450 and then almost $100 for a Prism with a Flash module, I do not feel it reasonable to expect it to wipe the module AT ALL if a transfer is interrupted.

Hmmm...I've got a couple thousand dollars of computer here and if I have a CD burn that gets interrupted, my CD is toast.

quote:
My issue with your comment is this: You're unqualified to quantify how much I like the Palm world at all.

Your issue is a straw man. If you're going to call Palm technology inferior to PocketPC technology, then you obviously like it less than PocketPC technology. I don't need to know the degree to which you like either.

quote:
If I find one thing I prefer on PPC, it doesn't mean I like one or the other better.

Then why would you buy one and not the other?

quote:
I like both and believe it or not, the Visor Prism does not encompass the entirety of the 'Palm world'.

No, it encompasses but a small portion of it. I didn't notice you saying that you were considering another Handspring or current Palm product, though.

quote:
What begs more of a question is why you keep responding to this.

You responded to my post. It's called a conversation (or my trying to approach it as such, although you seem to prefer ranting).

quote:
I wasn't inviting my choice to debate.

Which begs the question: "Then why did you post it here in the first place?"

quote:
You don't have to keep saying the equivalent of "Don't let the door hit you on your way out."

You're reading more into my words than is there. What I'm saying is... You don't like the Handspring product. You're not looking for a possible fix since you've apparently already made up your mind to buy something else. That something else isn't a Visor of any flavor. It's too bad that your Visor didn't work out, but there's obviously nothing that anyone can do for you on that front. I wish you luck in finding another product which is more to your liking. Anything more that you're reading into that is your own imagination running wild.

quote:
And by the way, your analysis of wether I "deserve sympathy and understanding" is borderline psychotic.

Thank you, Sigmund Freud. It's funny that you'd think that I have no basis to determine your level of "liking" Palms or PocketPCs from your statements here, and yet you think you can assess my mental health with far less personal information. Which issues of Psychology Today can I find which reference more of your work?

quote:
You have obviously far too much emotionally invested in your Visor (and this discussion).

Yet another funny. I'm not the one getting emotional here. You're the one who felt the need to rant about the data in your Visor. My Visor could melt in my hand due to a catastrophic hardware failure, and I'd manage to carry on. You lost an 8mb module and you're ranting against all comers. Which one of us has too much emotional investment?

quote:
WHY do you think I care?

Ummm...you posted here, Usenet, and who knows where else. You're obviously looking for feedback of some sort. With your psychological acumen, that should have been an easy one for you.

quote:
Again, for the umpteenth time, I am not presenting this position for you (or anyone else's) approval.

Then exactly why are you presenting it? Why didn't you set up a webpage somewhere? I'm sure handsprings8mbmodulesucks.com is probably available.

quote:
You seem to be taking it personally,

*sigh* No, you're projecting.

quote:
like I'm rejecting your daughter or something.

LOL...and I'm the one taking this personally. heh

quote:
Get over it. Because I don't want a Prism anymore doesn't make me fickle

You are correct. Just because you don't want a Prism anymore doesn't make you fickle. All of the handhelds that you've listed as having owned and the fact that you're already plotting two subsequent purchases makes you fickle. The word isn't necessarily insulting. It just describes a tendency to change one's preference often. If you're going through as many handhelds as you claim, then you're fickle. Sorry that it disturbs you so much. Maybe you should talk with one of your colleagues for some in-kind therapy.

quote:
and it doesn't mean I am trying to make you 'cowtow' to same.

*sigh* Well, you're the one getting upset because you didn't receive the level of sympathy you apparently thought you deserved.

quote:
Jeez man, you need help!

You're projecting some more.

quote:
And you think I want to gain anything?

Evidently you do.

quote:
I was sharing my experience and my resulting decision.

And you thought that this could help others which would increase your self-esteem that you had "helped".

quote:
LOTS of people do this daily on this system.

Sure, and lots of people get all sorts of varied replies. For some reason, lots of people that rant like you were tend to get replies that they don't like. I'm sure you can figure out the reasons for that.

quote:
A normal person would say "Hmm, too bad. I think it was (or was not) due to ____. Good luck!" And that's it.

This is simply not true.

quote:
But no... You and a couple of others have to somehow belittle me and blame me for everything - and even cast personal stones. What the hell?

I cast no personal stones at you. I was just looking at your actions based on available information.

quote:
And I never had my E-100 or E-115 do anything remotely like what happened with the Prism.

And others have. Peter even posted an example on Usenet, to my recollection. So what's your point?

quote:
Of course, you avoided my point - which was the fact that the PPC's handle and use CF better than the Visors handle Flash.

Your point was fairly irrelevant since they're not the same animal.

quote:
THEN SHUT UP and stop replying.

I thought that I was the one with emotional problems.

quote:
I am, after this message.

We shall see.

quote:
You can feel free to continue ranting, which I suspect you will do - - just that.

You're still projecting. I never started ranting.

quote:
Obviously, BECAUSE I SAID IT MYSELF. I initially thought the hacks (of which only AB was active) were on the module. I was wrong. It has nothing to do with anything.

Well, it actually could have had quite a bit to do with it. It still tends to speak to the lack of attention to detail on your part.

quote:
How the hell would you know, anyway? Are you a Handspring engineer?

No, but I've a bit of engineering knowledge, and the general principles are fairly universal. Anyone who produces a product at that level is going to have operating specs which parts suppliers have to comply with. Handspring doesn't make all their own components. Even if they did, there would have to be specs to give to the manufacturing machine operators.

quote:
Overclocking is like many other applications that take over the system. It runs in the background. LOTS of things made for Visors and Palms "go beyond the bounds of the design."

No...only the hacks and other things which modify the way the OS or hardware operates. I do hope that you're not a programmer for 3DO if that's how you view system design.

quote:
Wether it was a lightning bolt, a particularly gaseous fart or Afterburner, the FileMover and Flash module should be set up in such a way that a file transfer interruption won't automatically corrupt the module.

*sigh* I'm sure that it likely is set up in such a way that it won't automatically corrupt the module. There is likely no way to do it, so that it'll never corrupt the module. Those are two different things.

quote:
As has been reported by others here and on Usenet, that's usually the outcome of such an event. THAT is what I am taking issue with. Naturally, you'll ignore that point.

Sorry, but I didn't ignore it.

quote:
As I said before, I tempted fate by using the thing at all.

Quick! Run to the PocketPC world. You'll never tempt fate with their hardware.

quote:
Again, I exceeded design specs by putting any software on it at all.

Ummm...no. If you're putting software which is looking for a specific different version of the OS? Maybe. But putting software is not exceeding the design specs. It's fulfilling the design specs if anything.

quote:
Some games tax the system quite a bit. 16-bit color itself is beyond the original Palm architecture...

But not beyond the design specs of the OS and hardware which the Prism uses.

quote:
As is color in general (which is why color Palms run so slowly). Your logic holds no water.

You don't even seem to know what logic is.

quote:
If it wasn't designed to do it, why does it do it? "What the machine was designed to do" is entirely relative and makes about as much sense as blaming users for ANY problem because they did ANYTHING with it.

This speaks to a lack of knowledge of what design or engineer means. We'll use a car example. The tires are my truck are designed and engineered to (among other specs) last ~80,000 miles, displace a certain amount of water on the road per revolution, and maintain integrity to at least 118 mph. As long as I'm operating within those specs, I should be fine. Let's say that I live in a place with long, straight, flat stretches of road and decide to drive at 125 mph on occasion, though. I'm exceeding the design specs of my tires. They might not blow up if I do this once, twice, or even twenty times. OTOH, if they do blow up, it's my fault that they did. This would also apply to driving on a road with more water than could be displaced, or driving beyond the 80,000 mile life of the tires.

quote:
No. It was my fault in your opinion - not in mine. If you took off your Visor colored glasses for a second and looked at my actual point, you might see my side of the argument. But no, you're too busy calling me names and pointing the finger. Sort of like standing and laughing at someone when they trip and fall on the sidewalk saying "You idiot, you should've looked where you were going."

No...more like saying: "Wow...that must've hurt. Perhaps you should be more careful where you're walking. It looks like you weren't paying attention to the sidewalk." Of course, you obviously don't want to hear that. You want me to help you complain about the city, state, and federal government that should be keeping all sidewalks pristine so that no one should ever trip on a sidewalk again.

quote:
And just what are the "factory specs" for running software? Because that's what we're discussing. Software controlling hardware.

The factory specs would be software which complies with the PalmOS 3.0, 3.1, or 3.5 APIs (depending on Visor model) and the proprietary API extensions which Handspring provides.

quote:
No, you're the one stamping their feet

Sorry, but I'm not stamping my feet.

quote:
blaming me for my loss of data while performing a perfectly routine and oft-repeated data transfer.

On a system which was running beyond its design. As I've said repeatedly, it may not happen the first, second, or even twentieth time, but you were living on borrowed time.

quote:
That's fine, I couldn't care less at this point.

Great...then we're finally in agreement on something.

quote:
And what specs, again, were those?

The ones which you're obviously ignorant of.

quote:
Is there a "You can't run this or that" spec sheet on Prisms?

http://www.handspring.com/support/prism_faqs.jhtml#q12 explains it simply enough.

quote:
No.

Well, actually, Yes. See above.

quote:
Where do you draw the line? Only overclockers? What about games that make harware calls? Video players?

As stated in that link..."Applications that do not follow Palm's Application Program Interface (API) standards also may experience issues." Basically anything which doesn't comply with the 3.5.2H APIs (in the case of the Prism).

quote:
You really don't have the foggiest notion what you're talking about...

How ironic.

quote:
Too busy claiming that any painting outside the lines is grounds for data loss and total blame. LOL...

No, I didn't say total blame, but certainly not blameless.

quote:
And I say the unit is designed to function outside those bounds.

You can say that...but you'd be wrong.

quote:
What happened when Visors went from 16MHz to 33MHz?

The hardware and OS were redesigned to take that into account (at least the relevant bits).

quote:
Is the DragonballVZ itself running 'outside the bounds' of the module's design?

Interesting possibility.

quote:
FileMover? Ridiculous. Processor speed is not the issue here.

But bus speed may very well be, since the bus speed is tied into the equation.

quote:
At the onset, I had no attitude except that directed towards my data loss.

Your post was fairly dripping with it. I'm obviously not the only one who noticed it. My replies were actually less inflammatory than the one's accusing you of *****ing and whining. Too bad you didn't notice that.

quote:
You effectively interjected a personal attack theme and fingerpointing session. Congratulations.

You have a rather weird view of personal attacks. Maybe you should look up paranoia in your DSM-IV.

quote:
Have fun with your Visor. I hope it returns a fraction of the foaming-mouth devotion you have shown it here today...

It hasn't caused any problems yet (except for that bad DRAM issue caused by another OEM which Handspring rectified).

[Edited by Toby on 02-12-2001 at 04:37 PM]

Posted by Toby on 02-12-2001 07:46 PM:

Re: Actually

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
I think Pix may be right on the crash issue.

That's quite possible. However, there was no way to know this with the information given. It would have been wiser to have all of the information before posting the original rant.

quote:
The reason that his module crashed was because he exceeded the amount that can be loaded into the module. The same thing happened to me a few days ago. It was pretty frustrating reloading everything back into the module. Luckily I did use back-up buddy and had a my module's data on file.

Therein lies the rub. Had his original post been stated as such, I think he'd have received much more sympathy, including from me. I think this is a pretty lax design if it'll allow you to try to copy more than it can hold.

quote:
However, although it was frustrating, I would strongly disagree that this was a valid reason to abandon Handspring or the Palm OS.

I'd agree, but it's definitely something that should be brought to Handspring's attention. The flash module's built in "firmware" can be upgraded after all, IIRC.

quote:
Pix, if you switch to a Pocket PC, how certain are you that this scenario would not happen?

Something similar has actually happened to someone (he posts as argent here) I consider a fairly reliable source of information (on a Jornada IIRC).

{laws snipped but enjoyed}

Posted by K. Cannon on 02-14-2001 08:03 PM:

An opposing viewpoint

I have started and deleted replies to this thread several times and find myself feeling compelled to respond (in spite of the fact that I am probably about to get raked over the coals):

You may think Bill brought his problem on himself.
You may think Bill is an idiot for doing so.
Bill is still a person who lost his entire flash module.
Bill is still a person.
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help him?
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help you?
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face assist any of the readers of this post???
Because at this point, where postings are being picked apart sentence by sentence, nothing is being accomplished but, perhaps, the honing of peoples' abilities to be sarcastic.
This isn't the first time on this forum (which I usually LOVE) that a post has gotten turned into a cut-down session.

P.S. I have previously enjoyed and learned from most of the folks who have posted in this thread, including Toby, Dick Richardson, Pixelator, and others....Furthermore, I LOVE my VDX, so please don't try to send me to Cassiopea-land.

Posted by Toby on 02-14-2001 09:53 PM:

Re: An opposing viewpoint

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I have started and deleted replies to this thread several times and find myself feeling compelled to respond (in spite of the fact that I am probably about to get raked over the coals):

You may want to email Bill to ask him for some counseling services regarding that compulsion.

quote:
You may think Bill brought his problem on himself.

Given the original information given, that seemed to be the logical conclusion.

quote:
You may think Bill is an idiot for doing so.

This was never even suggested. At most, I think Bill is unwilling to take responsibility for his own actions which may have contributed to the problem regardless of whether they were the final cause. It might mean I wouldn't want to hang out with him or wouldn't want to rely on him for anything, but it doesn't mean I think he's an idiot because of that.

quote:
Bill is still a person who lost his entire flash module.

Well, to be precise, he lost the contents. The module is still in existence and presumably functional if one reformats it.

quote:
Bill is still a person.

Why yes he is. And so am I. And so are you. Does this mean that he should never be informed when he is the possible/probable cause of his own problems?

quote:
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help him?

Does his coming in here ranting at all comers help him?

quote:
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help you?

Well, when somebody starts ranting at me when I'm trying to point out possible causes to their problem, it certainly doesn't hurt me to do so.

quote:
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face assist any of the readers of this post???

I'm sure that at least one person got enough of a laugh out of it to email me, so it brightened somebody's day.

quote:
Because at this point, where postings are being picked apart sentence by sentence, nothing is being accomplished but, perhaps, the honing of peoples' abilities to be sarcastic.

*sigh* This is not about picking posts apart sentence by sentence. It's about being as clear in what's being replied to as possible. Look, I don't participate here for my health. Usually, the only time I post a reply is when I think I can clarify something, can answer someone's question, or am replying to someone's reply to a previous post of mine. Any sarcasm contained in my replies is certainly not unprovoked.

quote:
This isn't the first time on this forum (which I usually LOVE) that a post has gotten turned into a cut-down session.

Sure, and it's probably not the first time that someone has come to the forum with a chip on their shoulder the size of a redwood.

quote:
P.S. I have previously enjoyed and learned from most of the folks who have posted in this thread, including Toby, Dick Richardson, Pixelator, and others....Furthermore, I LOVE my VDX, so please don't try to send me to Cassiopea-land.

Glad that you got something out of a previous post of mine. I'm not going to try to send you to Cassiopeia land (unless you want to buy my old E-11 which I can't stand

). OTOH, I'm not going to be mischaracterized as some sort of cruel blackheart who's beating up defenseless posters.

Posted by K. Cannon on 02-15-2001 02:35 PM:

Certainly, I do not consider you to be a cruel blackheart victimizing defenseless posters. Having learned from your previous postings and having personally witnessed your assistance in answering questions, that is definitely not my opinion.

Rather, I know how it is to make a mistake (ya know, really Eff something up) and want to ***** about it a little bit.

Maybe Bill went about it the wrong way and maybe he went defensive on us, but let's have a little compassion...and if we know what he did wrong, let's let him know in a kinder, gentler way....no need to kick a man when he's down.

Maybe VC could be one of the "thousand points of light" (said in my best Dana Carvey voice)

Posted by Toby on 02-15-2001 03:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Certainly, I do not consider you to be a cruel blackheart victimizing defenseless posters. Having learned from your previous postings and having personally witnessed your assistance in answering questions, that is definitely not my opinion.

OK.

quote:
Rather, I know how it is to make a mistake (ya know, really Eff something up) and want to ***** about it a little bit.

That I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is somebody questioning my sanity when I tell them that they may have "effed up" and contributed to their problem.

quote:
Maybe Bill went about it the wrong way and maybe he went defensive on us, but let's have a little compassion...and if we know what he did wrong, let's let him know in a kinder, gentler way....no need to kick a man when he's down.

Well, if the man starts kicking you when you're trying to help him up, though...it's time to drop him again.

quote:
Maybe VC could be one of the "thousand points of light" (said in my best Dana Carvey voice)

I think that it might be several of them already.

Posted by BobbyMike on 02-15-2001 04:09 PM:

It seems he either made the mistake of overclocking his unit or trying to copy too much data onto his module. Either one could be considered user error. Machines are dumb by nature and cannot operate outside their parameters. So he made a mistake. He posted about it, stating his opinion that the Handspring team had designed the module (and the way in which it operated)poorly and said he was leaving the wonderful word of Handspring and going back to PPC world. OK.
He has my sympathy because I make mistakes too. I wish him luck and also regret missing out on his Prism (wife's engine blew- money went there instead.)
Reading this post has reminded me at how intolerant we can get towards people who make mistakes and complain about them. A little sympathy wouldn't have hurt.
I do appreciate all the info that people posted about the technical limits/design of the Visor.
Just remember that what makes this board so cool- the ability to communicate with a great cross section of people all over the world- also removes the face to face contact that normal conversation allows (would we be so pointed to each other if we were sitting across from each other at our lunch breaks?). What results is the dissection of remarks into "quotes" and the resulting "point scored" system of replying.
Resist quotes, they are an evil designed by debate clubs in High Schools for no better good than to foster argumentative logic.
As an exercise I might suggest all parties go back and rewrite their prior posts, excising all personal decriptions, slights and sarcasms, etc. You might be surprised at how much was( or little) was actually said about the hardware/software problems, and how much uncivilty was passed around.
Just my own opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree if you want.
Michael Walters

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