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Posted by septimus on 05-06-2003 12:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

What is that? If I didn't know you better, DB, I would think you did that intentionally to insult us Christians...

shorthand for Christian -- learned from a nun, I might add.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-06-2003 04:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Ahh, now I see your confusion...

here's a quote from that Dimont book, it sums up what others have also said about Hitler:

"We must recognize the fact that Nazism was not anti-Semitic but anti-human. Because Nazi beliefs of racial superiority had no basis in fact, Nazism was like a nightmare, unfolding without a past or future in an ever-moving present. Because none but German Aryans were qualified to live in the Nazi view, it stood to reason that everyone else would be exterminated. The chilling reality is that when the Russians overran the concentration camps i Poland they found enough Zyklon B crystals to kill 20 million people. Yet there were no more than 3 million Jews left in Europe. The ratio of contemplated mass killing was no longer 1.4 Christians for every Jew, but 5.3 Christians for every Jew. Nazi future plans called for the killing of ten million non-German people every year.

If the Christian reader dismisses what happened in Germany as something which affected a few million Jews only, he has not merely shown his contempt for the seven million Christians murdered by the Nazis, but has betrayed his Christian heritage as well. And, if the Jewish reader forgets the seven million Christians murdered by the Nazis, than has not merely let five million Jews die in vain but has betrayed his Jewish heritage of passion and justice. It is no longer a question of the survival of the Jews only. It is a question of the survival of man."

The Christians were killed because of their religion/who they were. Many died because they stood up to the Nazis (supporting their beliefs as Christians). The so called Christians that supported him were, in fact, not very Christian. This wasn't about religion, it was about racial identity. You were either a German Aryan, or you weren't. The Nazis started with the Jews, Gypsies, etc. because they felt they would get less resistance from everybody else.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. He didn't believe in the sovereignity of Jesus Christ. He dabbled in the occult and killed Protestants and Catholics freely. Please don't make the mistake of labeling him a Christian, it is very offensive to we Christians.

You also make the mistake of assumingthat all the people who supported him knew what was going on. The average "Hans" only knew what the Nazi propagandists told them. Part of the reason that I don't think something like that could ever happen in a "civilized country" again is the widespread access to the internet that we have. It's much harder to control a populances world view when the can freely and easily go beyond the borders of their own nation for information.

Gotta go to work...

Thats an interesting yet biased and christian-centric view.
Some parts like'the fact that Nazism was not anti-Semitic ' and 'If the Christian reader dismisses what happened in Germany as something which affected a few million Jews only'
are borderline on denying the holocaust and anti-semitism...
I find that worrying...

'Because none but German Aryans were qualified to live in the Nazi view' is plain incorrect. Fasism (which is what Nazism is based on) was founded in italy and there are few Aryans in Italy...
Also the Italians and japanese were allies of the Nazi's you can call neither of them aryan...

'The Christians were killed because of their religion/who they were. ' is a bit of a strech too.. they were not killed because they were christian, if that was the case Hitler would have to kill 90% of germany.. they were killed of opposing nazism... BIG difference, even though they probably did it because nazism clashed with their (christian) believes.

I still havent had time to look into the details about the numbers yet, but why are all the historical pictures of the concentration camps/transports showing the mayority of the people with the david star?
Why don't the mayority of the historians point out this christian holocaust?

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-06-2003 12:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Thats an interesting yet biased and christian-centric view.
Some parts like'the fact that Nazism was not anti-Semitic ' and 'If the Christian reader dismisses what happened in Germany as something which affected a few million Jews only'
are borderline on denying the holocaust and anti-semitism...
I find that worrying...

'Because none but German Aryans were qualified to live in the Nazi view' is plain incorrect. Fasism (which is what Nazism is based on) was founded in italy and there are few Aryans in Italy...
Also the Italians and japanese were allies of the Nazi's you can call neither of them aryan...

'The Christians were killed because of their religion/who they were. ' is a bit of a strech too.. they were not killed because they were christian, if that was the case Hitler would have to kill 90% of germany.. they were killed of opposing nazism... BIG difference, even though they probably did it because nazism clashed with their (christian) believes.

I still havent had time to look into the details about the numbers yet, but why are all the historical pictures of the concentration camps/transports showing the mayority of the people with the david star?
Why don't the mayority of the historians point out this christian holocaust?

Dimont is Jewish first off (a very proud Jewish scholar). To say what he said was denying the holocaust is incorrect. His saying that the Nazis weren't anti-semetic was meant to convey that wasn't where they (the Nazis) were coming from, they were anti-human, meaning it didn't stop there. He merely said to not forget that Christians were killed also. (and also for Christians not to deny that Jews were murdered). He was reminding all people not to forget what had happened. It's been pretty well documented (in Dimont's book also) that the Nazis hated the Jews. I personally believe they targeted the Jews first because they saw them as a group they could persecute rather effortlessly. they used the techniques they perfected on the Jewish people (denigrate, marginilize, islolate, separate, concentrate, kill) on the Gypsies, Slavic Christians, Jehovahs, etc.

Second the Aryan racial purity stuff is correct. Do you think that the Nazis were going to share power with the Italians, Japanese? These guys were nuts. They used the other members of the Axis as cannon fodder basically. Remember, they were "friends" with the Russians too, until they betrayed them. You're incorrect to assume that they planned on living happily with anyone who wasn't of "their kind". Also remember that Facism is merely a form of government, not a Racial Indentity.

You view on the "Christian stretch" is interesting, but strange. The Christians who opposed the Nazi regime were being Christian, not merely calling themselves Christians. Believing in racial purity while also believing in the word of Christ as absolute truth is incompatible.

The info is there, you just have to look. The Polish people are a little better than most groups at getting this info out as so many of their people were killed, Jewish and Christian. The other groups didn't coalesce into any kind of post war group to inform people like the Jewish people did, probably because there weren't any other large groups (millions at a time) of any particular ethnic/etc. group that were targeted like the Jews (except for the Gypsies- who were nominal Christians in that they usually adopted the religious practices of the area in which they lived and the Polish - or the "Christian Slav", as the Nazis called them)).

As the term "holocaust" is of Jewish origin (in regards to the persecution of Jews) I don't like to use that term in regards to the death camps. I use racial cleansing because for the Nazis, anyone that didn't meet their idea of pure was also a candidate. Please don't misread anything that I've quoted/said. None of this is meant to take away the horror that was done to the Jewish people, but to add to the horror committed against the entire human race by the Nazis.

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Posted by K. Cannon on 05-06-2003 02:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
FYI some really "stickly" born-agains don't see Catholics as Christians because they say Catholics pray to the Saints and Mary.

Yep, some even think that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon" referenced in the Book of Revelations--

Please don't flame me anyone, I dont' think that, I'm just saying I've heard of it.

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-06-2003 02:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
You view on the "Christian stretch" is interesting, but strange. The Christians who opposed the Nazi regime were being Christian, not merely calling themselves Christians. Believing in racial purity while also believing in the word of Christ as absolute truth is incompatible.

quote:
[from ToolkiTthey were killed of opposing nazism... BIG difference, even though they probably did it because nazism clashed with their (christian) believes.

I think you two are basically saying the same thing here.

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-06-2003 11:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Yep, some even think that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon" referenced in the Book of Revelations--

Please don't flame me anyone, I dont' think that, I'm just saying I've heard of it.

I've heard it too. My church (Assembly of God) definitely doesn't support that, we want to see more of a breakdown of the doctrinal(sic) walls. Too many Christians spend all their time argueing what it means to be a Christian and not enough time being Christians.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-07-2003 03:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

I think you two are basically saying the same thing here.

I think we mean the same thing, but my way is not limited to christians only. Atheist who had the same basic principles and stood up against the nazis were killed too. My point it that the fact the christians were christians is irrelevant...

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Posted by yardie on 05-11-2003 05:16 PM:

And what is wrong in talking about the SARs crisis in terms of dollars and cents? The whole thing was overblown by the media -- just like the so called threat that Iraq posed to the world. I live in the city and take transit everyday. I have only seen one kook wearing a mask, I never felt afraid of going anywhere in the city.

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Interesting. The Canadian official that I heard speaking only talked about how many tourist dollars that they would lose, never how safe it was. He came across as being very put out that someone would put a crimp in his projected tourism.

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Posted by yardie on 05-11-2003 05:19 PM:

Christian comes from the word Christ. Anyone that believes in God/Christ is a Christian in my book. Different Christian denominations have different interpretations of the bible.

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

By whose definition? Mainstream Christians consider them a cult as they believe you must be a Jehovah Witness to get into heaven (like Mormons or the followers of Rev. Moon).

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-14-2003 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
And what is wrong in talking about the SARs crisis in terms of dollars and cents? The whole thing was overblown by the media -- just like the so called threat that Iraq posed to the world. I live in the city and take transit everyday. I have only seen one kook wearing a mask, I never felt afraid of going anywhere in the city.

???

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-14-2003 12:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Christian comes from the word Christ. Anyone that believes in God/Christ is a Christian in my book. Different Christian denominations have different interpretations of the bible.

Umm, OK., but your book doesn't count (except for yourself). Most people would say that believing in something doesn't count as much as acting according to that faith.

Some people consider Mormons Christian (not using them to attack them, but to illustrate an example), but others consider their religion an apostasy because they don't just use the Bible, but also use additional books that contradict the Bible and it's tenets. (for example)

Believing in God/Christ doesn't make you a Christian. Satan believes in God/Christ and he isn't considered a Christian. Most Hindus will tell you that they believe in God/Christ also, they just also happen to believe in many more gods too.

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Posted by yardie on 05-18-2003 02:09 AM:

But the question remains... who can say someone is a Christian or not? Why is a Baptist any more or less a Christian than a Jehovah Witness?

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Umm, OK., but your book doesn't count (except for yourself). Most people would say that believing in something doesn't count as much as acting according to that faith.

Some people consider Mormons Christian (not using them to attack them, but to illustrate an example), but others consider their religion an apostasy because they don't just use the Bible, but also use additional books that contradict the Bible and it's tenets. (for example)

Believing in God/Christ doesn't make you a Christian. Satan believes in God/Christ and he isn't considered a Christian. Most Hindus will tell you that they believe in God/Christ also, they just also happen to believe in many more gods too.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-19-2003 12:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
But the question remains... who can say someone is a Christian or not? Why is a Baptist any more or less a Christian than a Jehovah Witness?

Well, anyone can call themselves anything they want, but if they don't act according to that - can they be cosinder such?

A person is a Christian if they believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God/One of the Trilogy and he died for our sins so that we would have a place in Heaven. The Bible, and Jesus' own words support that. If you believe something other than that how could you be considered Christian? To be Christian means to follow Christ, not merely that you acknowledge that he existed.

Conversley I don't feel anyone has the right to judge anyone else's walk with Christ. I do have the right to judge whether the doctrine they are following is true though.

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Posted by Yorick on 05-19-2003 12:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
I do have the right to judge whether the doctrine they are following is true though.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-19-2003 01:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Just being scriptural. If I blindly follow what someone says is proper and lawful under Biblical guidelines, but I don't check it myself (ie. see if it actually is supported by the Bible, I'm worse than a fool.

Judge not, lest ye be judge has to do with judging someones actions. (you know, "She's a whore because ..., He's not worthy to be in our church because ..., etc.)

Remeber that some of Charlie Mansons followers thought he was Jesus/The Messiah. That didn't make them Christians!

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-19-2003 01:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Well, anyone can call themselves anything they want, but if they don't act according to that - can they be cosinder such?

A person is a Christian if they believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God/One of the Trilogy and he died for our sins so that we would have a place in Heaven. The Bible, and Jesus' own words support that. If you believe something other than that how could you be considered Christian? To be Christian means to follow Christ, not merely that you acknowledge that he existed.

Conversley I don't feel anyone has the right to judge anyone else's walk with Christ. I do have the right to judge whether the doctrine they are following is true though.

I guess that would make a jehova's witness a christian..

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Posted by Yorick on 05-19-2003 04:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Just being scriptural. If I blindly follow what someone says is proper and lawful under Biblical guidelines, but I don't check it myself (ie. see if it actually is supported by the Bible, I'm worse than a fool.

Judge not, lest ye be judge has to do with judging someones actions. (you know, "She's a whore because ..., He's not worthy to be in our church because ..., etc.)

Remeber that some of Charlie Mansons followers thought he was Jesus/The Messiah. That didn't make them Christians!

i was just mocking your word choice. I know basically "jack" and "schtick" about the Bible.

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-19-2003 07:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

I guess that would make a jehova's witness a christian..

Not to some folks. JWs have added to the baseline requirements on what it takes to get into Heaven. So to some they qualify as a cult.

They haven't added to the Bible like the Mormons have (who think Jesus is Satans brother among other value added doctrine), so I personally think of them as Christians (JWs) as does the Assembly of God Church that I belong to. We just feel they're off on a tangent that we chose not to go off on.

I think a lot of the legalism and religiousity you see in some people tends to turn people away from seeking their own personal relationship with Jesus. Their view of Christianity is formed by the actions of men instead of the message from the Messiah. A pity, but Jesus warned us of that happening in the Bible.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-19-2003 07:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

i was just mocking your word choice. I know basically "jack" and "schtick" about the Bible.

1) Mocking me?! MOCKING ME??!! Why you skinless neophyte calcium deposit bowling ball wanna be of a knicker bocking post hole digging animated gif!! How dare you mock me!!

2) heh heh

3) At least you knew the scripture well enough to quote it, and you did capitalize Bible.

4) Where's the little :I'mmockingyou: smiley?

5) You want to borrow a Bible?

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-19-2003 08:25 AM:

Hey BobbyMike,
Is your new avantar a reconstruction of Yoricks face based on the skull?

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