VisorCentral.com - Are we setting ourselves up for disappointment again?

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor & Deluxe (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)
-- Are we setting ourselves up for disappointment again? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=9088)

Posted by mattp on 10-31-2000 03:33 AM:

I am getting ready to upgrade to one of the new Visors, mainly so that I can use the wireless options that are becoming available.

In the process of upgrading I keep coming back to the thought that we may be setting ourselves up to be disappointed again. Are we going to be faced with the same dilemma of needing the new model to use the latest features a year down the road? What happens if the next killer feature is not compatible with OS 3.5? Is there a better alternative or am I just thinking into this way too much. It seems that the new models are getting more expensive and that makes having to replace them even more troubling.

Anyone have any thought on this? Can anyone ease my concerns?

Thanks

Matt

Posted by dustsheep on 10-31-2000 03:49 AM:

To perhaps ease your concerns,
I'm upgrading also. And I feel the same way about losing money cause the next big accessory will need something 'better' than what I own. It all just plain stinks.

Dan

Posted by raptor on 10-31-2000 04:37 AM:

Well, this is the way things are with all technology. I mean, I just got myself a PlayStation 2, and a year down the road, there will be something bigger and better available (Nintendo GameCube, MS Xbox, Indrema's Linux based console, etc).

However, notice that it's not Handspring's fault that new modules don't work with older Visors. It is the company who designs the modules who make this choice. They will be the ones to suffer the consequences (less sales due to a smaller market) of their actions. So are they really hurting us? Or are they hurting themselves?

However, to my knowledge, there really aren't that many incompatibilities with old Visors. I mean, the @ctivelink is supposed to work, as does the Minstrel S (it's specifically Omnisky's service that doesn't work, I think). Also, Handspring IS offering updgrades of existing Visors for new 'shielded' versions if people run into those incompatibilities.

But none of this surprises me. It doesn't really upset me that much either. It's just the way things are. I'm at least happy to see Handspring attempt to help out by offering the shielded replacements instead of just leaving everyone out to dry.

__________________
-Richard Powell

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

Posted by yucca on 10-31-2000 10:11 PM:

I have to disagree; customers are being left out to dry. Handspring has considerable responsibility here, as all these wireless vendors are Springboard Licensees. Because Handspring used to state that all Visors are upgradable via SBMs, they should make sure that their licensees release compatible products. This whole mess with wireless products has been so badly handled by Handspring that I'm challenged to imagine how they could have done a better job of misrepresenting the Visor's capabilities if they had tried to do so. This issue is especially vexing because some Springboard licensees are now claiming that nothing short of Palm OS v3.5 will work with their offerings, and "original" Visor owners are being given no viable way of getting to Palm OS v3.5 - this despite Handspring's assurances that a non-flashable OS was OK because of Springboard technology!

BTW, this is not the first time that Handspring has provided misleading information regarding the capabilities of the Visor. They used to claim that the Visor would do IR HotSyncing "with third-party software." What they failed to mention was that there is no solution for network IR HotSyncing. Even after they were notified of this problem, it was months before they corrected their mistake.

Posted by Jay on 10-31-2000 10:37 PM:

I had the same queasy feeling as I placed my order.

But I figured that the two things I want most are color and wireless connectivity, and my new Prism will do that. The other things I want are GPS (c'mon, Geode!) and an _affordable_ MP3 player. So hopefully next year I'll still by happy with my choice.

But you bring up an interesting question -- I wonder what next year's killer app will be? Hmmm!

Jay

__________________
Jay
Building a Boat & a Dream
http://www.adventuregrrl.com

Posted by MarkEagle on 11-01-2000 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yucca
This issue is especially vexing because some Springboard licensees are now claiming that nothing short of Palm OS v3.5 will work with their offerings, and "original" Visor owners are being given no viable way of getting to Palm OS v3.5 - this despite Handspring's assurances that a non-flashable OS was OK because of Springboard technology!

This is an interesting point... but I wonder if it has to do so much with the OS version as it does with the shielding we've heard about? If it were just the OS, couldn't the necessary patch just be part of the modules memory? In my mind, that should be the case, but if it really is this shielding stuff... who knows? I guess I'd like to know if the Prism and Platinum (and new Deluxes, for that matter) are better shielded than the original units.

__________________

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Posted by bradhaak on 11-01-2000 01:29 AM:

I honestly don't think that it is an issue with shielding. I have been using OmniSky on my Palm Vx every since late last year.

OmniSky is heavily tied to the PQA (Palm VII web clipping app) architecture. As part of the installation on a Palm V, they upgrade the OS to 3.5 and then install a bunch of extra files to add the Palm VII compatability.

These features were introduced into the OS for the original Palm VII which I think was v3.20 (After v3.1 that is in the VDX.) The 3.5 OS is the first version that can support PQA's as an add-in rather than as a monolithic part of the OS itself.

Now as far as OmniSky itself is concerned, I am sure that the connection software would work on a VDX since it is provided by Novatel Wireless. Their email program should also wrk just fine. Probably a few other bits and pieces would also work ok with the older OS. However I will bet that OmniSky is checking the OS version as part of the installation process. I can't blame them since they don't want to support a configuration that only 'kinda works'.

Don't flame me if I don't have every detail correct, since I am working from memory (I don't have access to all of my documetation here at my real job.) However, I am fairly confidant that this is the correct 'Big Picture' on why OmniSky is limiting the service to Platinums and Prisms only. It also shows why some of the other companies that are shipping the same hardware with a more traditional internet software suite (no PQA's) are not restricted by the OS version.

Posted by Gameboy70 on 11-01-2000 07:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yucca
I have to disagree; customers are being left out to dry. Handspring has considerable responsibility here, as all these wireless vendors are Springboard Licensees.

Actually, as far as I know, the wireless vendors and other Springboard manufacturers aren't licensees. My understanding is that a Springboard license is for the slot, not the module. So if Palm wanted to include a Springboard slot, they'd have to pay, but Innogear doesn't have to get a license to put out the MiniJam.

That doesn't mean that Handspring's not responsible for failing to disclose the VDX's potential limitations with wireless modules, but it does mean that they might have less leverage with third parties than we might assume.

__________________
Eye of Gameboy

Posted by yucca on 11-01-2000 07:12 PM:

Hmmm. You've got a good point if that is how licensing works (and I've no reason to doubt you). I've never gotten to that portion of the development kit, but I had assumed that use of Handspring logos and trademarks did come with some strings attached. If not, that was a serious mistake on their part!

Posted by edberger on 11-01-2000 10:59 PM:

Well I'm going back to Palm and buying the IIIc and add the wireless to that. I feel Handspring has been stringing me along and NOW they say I have to buy a new PRISM.

The IIIc is slower and 16 color but its only $329 plus $239 for the modem. The Prism is $450 and the modem is $370 with a $100 rebate.

Anybody want a VDX doorstop?

I no longer trust Handspring! I'll be selling my stock too for that matter.

Posted by raptor on 11-02-2000 06:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by edberger
Well I'm going back to Palm and buying the IIIc and add the wireless to that. I feel Handspring has been stringing me along and NOW they say I have to buy a new PRISM.

The IIIc is slower and 16 color but its only $329 plus $239 for the modem. The Prism is $450 and the modem is $370 with a $100 rebate.

Well, I don't believe Handspring ever said you needed to buy a new Visor. That's Omnisky and (apparently now) YadaYada. Isn't Novatel Wireless (the company that actually manufactures the Minstrel S modem) still saying that it works fine with the standard Visor models (at least that's what I've still read around places)? This just leads me to believe that it's the choice of software that these service providers are using, not the actual hardware.

I could be wrong on that, but I'm just going by the articles that I've read within the past few days.

On another note, didn't Novatel cancel their wireless modem for the IIIc? Which wireless solution is available for the Palm IIIc at the moment? I'm not actually doubting you, I'm truthfully asking because I'm curious.

__________________
-Richard Powell

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

Posted by zelchenko on 11-02-2000 04:13 PM:

@#$*!ing Handspring Lying Sack of Scum

The point people are making about this being a problem with all technology is MOOT. Handspring's philosophy is supposedly that they would NOT be that way, and they LIED to us. This is especially unfuriating because these are some of the FIRST modules to be released--the FIRST modules are supposed to work with the FIRST visors. I am so sick of all these idiots following a company that lies so blatantly that they can't even see that they are being robbed blind. Stop defending Handspring. Demand the truth. Make them come clean. They are hiding behind the glitz and glamour of their new products and good press.

!^@# them!

Posted by Usonian on 11-02-2000 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by zelchenko
This is especially unfuriating(sic) because these are some of the FIRST modules to be released--the FIRST modules are supposed to work with the FIRST visors. I am so sick of all these idiots following a company that lies so blatantly that they can't even see that they are being robbed blind.

Huh? FIRST modules? Call me crazy, but I would have called the backup module, modems, expansion module, eyemodule, omniremote, innopak, tiger woods golf and infomitt some of the "FIRST" modules.

It's definitely a disappointment to find out that the Minstrel S will not work with Visor/VisorDeluxe, or at least not fully. But what exactly are Handspring and/or Novatel supposed to do? Create a software patch that would add the necessary PQA support for the first Visors? How much of your Visor's RAM would you want to devote to such a patch, which would probably need to be close to the size of the 1,632K 3.1 ROM to implement all of the base level OS changes necessary... as soon as people had such a patch installed they'd start *****ing about how slow their Visors run.

Is there a specific page on Handspring's web site or a specific press release or interview in which Handspring promised to release patches to support all future springboard modules and OS improvements in perpetuity? Please post a link, if there is. Handspring made no secret about the non-flashable OS ROM, but people still insist on complaining about it as though they had been duped.

Should Handspring have gone with flashable ROM for their original units? They wouldn't have been able to compete with Palm. They've been criticised for not using flashable ROM on the Platinum/Prism, but they would have received an equal amount of flak for the added cost and supply problems had they gone the other route.

Should Novatel have developed for OS 3.1 only, leaving PQA support out? Might make V/VDX owners happy, but then all of the new Prism/Platinum owners would be pissed. So should they have developed two wireless modems to make everyone happy? Up go development costs and times, and the end cost of the units. More complaints from V/VDX andPrism/Platinum owners.

quote:
Stop defending Handspring. Demand the truth. Make them come clean. They are hiding behind the glitz and glamour of their new products and good press.

!^@# them!

I assume you've already thrown your Visor and accessories away in protest - wouldn't want to sell your Visor to someone else, lest they decide to support Handspring. Have you actually contacted Handspring yet, to "demand the truth" and "make them come clean"? I'm sure the VC crowd would be interested in their response.

__________________
<br>"Form follows function - that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union" -Frank Lloyd Wright

Posted by golfnuthi on 11-02-2000 06:32 PM:

Shame on me

I should have know better to think that when I purchased my VDX that it would be compatible for years to come. It seems Handspring has abandoned their principles. At least Palm allows you to upgrade the OS. I have been a VDX owner since the beginning days of waiting 2 hours for customer support and through all the birthing pains, I stuck with them. Now, I don't know, I think they lost me!!

__________________
Jim

Posted by BertBert on 11-02-2000 07:21 PM:

I have to agree with golfnuthi here. I posted somewhere else on this discussion board that it adds insult to injury to finally come out with some great new service, like wireless connectivity, and then say "Whoops! Your Visor is too old to use this. However, if you're willing to pay Handspring $200+ [depending on rebates] then we can make it work." Surely Handspring and those companies providing services and hardware to Handspring customers can figure out some way of making their products work on pre-existing technology. (I know you can't reverse-engineer everything, but the VPL isn't exactly a quantum leap beyond the VDx is it?)

I really like my VDx, and at one point I liked Handspring and the sort of philosophy they have/had toward hardware. But now I feel like I am caught in a bait-and-switch operation.

__________________
BertBert
Mark 12:28-31

Posted by adfleisher on 11-02-2000 07:45 PM:

First of all, all of this flamming of handspring is out of line. They didn't make the modules in question, and had no control over the contents of those modules. Remember that the springboard specs are OPEN SOURCE. This means anyone with the know how can develop modules and bring them to market. While it is this factor that is causing the current problems with wireless connectivity, it is also the reason so many companys have been able to start up in this economy and make the springboard modules we all crave so veimently! How many of you actually think that SoundsGood, Global Access, or any of the new company's that ONLY manufacture springboards would have jumped on the development bandwagon so quickly if they had to deal with corporate interference and acceptance ALA Apple?

I too was an early adopter (recieved my IVdx 1 year ago today), and am now having to upgrade to the Platinum to get the wireless connectivity I crave, but that is the story told by every early adopter of a new product since high-tech became a houshold word. How many of you pissed and moaned this loud when you found out you needed to spend $200 for a new video card when the killer 3D apps started comming out for your PC? Very few I'm sure, because you realized as most sane people do that the need for speed and keeping up with the Jones' drive this economy and your purchasing decisions.

Would it be better if OmniSky had made their unit and service compatible with the VDx? Sure. But who among us would want a wireless module that prevented us from using all of the cool PQA's that our buddy's with the VII have had for months?

Well, I guess that is enough of a rant for today, but I hope everyone now understands that technology evolves, and just because you bought a handheld a year ago doesn't mean you are entitled to the same technolgical marvels as the people willing to pony up and feed their cravings.

Let the flames end here.

BigDrew

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"Whoever said bigger isn't better...Lied!"

Posted by John Nowak on 11-02-2000 07:51 PM:

I'm inclined to agree with Usonian. Life's full of little disappointments, and the modules in question aren't even made by Handspring.

Posted by Toby on 11-02-2000 07:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Usonian
[QUOTE]It's definitely a disappointment to find out that the Minstrel S will not work with Visor/VisorDeluxe, or at least not fully. But what exactly are Handspring and/or Novatel supposed to do? Create a software patch that would add the necessary PQA support for the first Visors?

That would seem to be a fair suggestion.

quote:
How much of your Visor's RAM would you want to devote to such a patch, which would probably need to be close to the size of the 1,632K 3.1 ROM to implement all of the base level OS changes necessary...

Considering that this (wireless connectivity) was one of the originally proposed modules, one would have thought this would have been taken into account.

quote:
as soon as people had such a patch installed they'd start *****ing about how slow their Visors run.

And if it did, they would be justified in doing so. Remember that we're not really talking about some new innovation that just appeared on the landscape. We're talking about something that was used to sell lots of the existing user base from the beginning.

quote:
Is there a specific page on Handspring's web site or a specific press release or interview in which Handspring promised to release patches to support all future springboard modules and OS improvements in perpetuity? Please post a link, if there is.

You're not going to find a page that states that specifically, but according to the Visor family page ( http://www.handspring.com/products/...ily/index.jhtml ), "EVERY Visor handheld: {...} Is infinitely expandable with Springboard modules" (emphasis added). When one clicks on the link (infinitely expandable), in large green text there is a quote that says "With Handspring's unique Springboard (TM) expansion slot, your Visor (TM) handheld can become whatever you want it to be." One can only assume that the "unless it's a Visor or Visor Deluxe and you want some sort of wireless modem like the Minstrel" is implied.

quote:
Handspring made no secret about the non-flashable OS ROM, but people still insist on complaining about it as though they had been duped.

In a way, we have (unless Handspring has something in the works which they haven't published). Not having flash ROM was considered a non-issue due to Handspring's supposed commitment to issuing patches.

From the Visor and Visor Deluxe FAQs:
"Upgrading the Internal Palm OS

Q. Is Visor "upgradeable?"
A. Yes. The Springboard expansion slot provides more possibilities for upgrading a handheld computer than any other technology or platform. With the Springboard slot, you will be able to upgrade your Visor to become a camera, a music player, a gaming machine, a virtual library, a global positioning system, a radio and even a phone, among many other things expected this year. You will also be able to add software to your Visor that will provide any necessary or fun improvements needed to keep your Visor up to date and compatible with all of the Palm OS� applications available.

Q. What about a Flash OS?
A. The Handspring Visor supports upgrades to the operating system (OS) via Springboard modules and software patches. We do not use "flash" memory to store the OS for several reasons: 1) we are fully upradeable via Springboard modules and software patches, 2) the vast majority of users will never need to completely rewrite the entire OS in memory, 3) "flash" memory is more costly and complex than "read-only memory" (ROM). We continually evaluate the best technologies for our products and will include those that provide clear benefits to our customers. To see the current differences in the built-in Visor OS and the Palm OS� release."

quote:
Should Handspring have gone with flashable ROM for their original units?

If they didn't intend to honor the commitment implicit in that answer, yeah.

quote:
They wouldn't have been able to compete with Palm.

The long-term answer to that question still hasn't been answered. The current outlook doesn't bode well, though, if this is their real level of commitment to existing users.

quote:
They've been criticised for not using flashable ROM on the Platinum/Prism, but they would have received an equal amount of flak for the added cost and supply problems had they gone the other route.

A tough situtation to be in surely, but that really doesn't excuse poor care towards existing customers. No one is entitled to make a killing in business. One is only entitled to the opportunity. If one falls short, that's the business' fault and not that of the consumer.

Now, after all that's been said, I'm still not at the point where I want to ditch my VDx. I even just ordered a MyVox from Amazon this morning. I'm merely stating that while I think lots of this complaining is being made in an unproductive manner (not necessarily referring to any specific case), I don't think that the complaints are invalid. If you really want to exact change, why not air your feelings in a rational and business-like manner to Handspring directly, as I've done. I also plan to follow-up in person at Comdex while visiting their booth. It's not wise to try and weasel away from an existing customer with a complaint while you're trying to sell a bunch of other people in a rather close public space.

Posted by golfnuthi on 11-02-2000 07:57 PM:

Missing the point

I think you are missing the point BigDrew. We were led to believe by HS that our units would be able to accept modules and that OS upgrades weren't necessary with the Visor.
While we may have been naive to think this would be true, it is too bad than HS played on everyone's naivity and enthusiasm.

__________________
Jim

Posted by golfnuthi on 11-02-2000 08:01 PM:

Bravo! Bravo!

Toby's comments and clarity put it best. And thanks for the quotes from HS. I too have communicated with HS via email in more cordial words than used here. Their response to me was less than empathetic.

__________________
Jim

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