Registered: May 2000
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 1429

Hello VC'ers.. (yet again)

I'm devleoping a new site/replacement for QDWD, and my chocies are Flash (more than the animation I have), or HTML/PHP.

I want my site to convey information, in a fun, easy to read format, that everybody can access. I'm on a dialup connection, so it needs to be fast, for people like me..

For whole websites, or major parts of websites, which formats does you people like better? A Flash site, or a pretty nicely tabled HTML site?

I'm stuck and can't decide!

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-miradu

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Surfside, FL, USA
Posts: 113

Go with HTML. It's more widely supported and a lot faster to load. Old machines and Visors can't handle Flash too well (Visors can't handle it at all).

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"A fish's dreams should stay in the sea." -"Big Eyed Fish", Dave Matthews

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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I want my site to convey information, in a fun, easy to read format, that everybody can access.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

I can't stand flash for site navigation. I don't even have the plugin installed on my computer.

BTW, I fixed your "psot" typo. Tsk, tsk.

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James Hromadka
Old Friend

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Flash intervention

The less Flash in the world, the better. Flash is a drug, even worse than PowerPoint if that's possible. Two years ago I quit a job at a web design firm over our "architect's" addiction to Flash. The worst part was that he wasn't particularly fluent with ActionScript; he only knew how to create tell targets. So he made virtually everything tell targets, even non-interactive movie clips. Then I'd have to go back and clean up after him.

Not to say that DHTML animation on the likes of GoLive are any better. But sites like VC or Slashdot are proof that you can build a sticky site without extravagant multimedia.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Flash is a drug, even worse than PowerPoint if that's possible.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

That's why I said I hate Flash for "navigation" like buttons, etc. I really liked how Handspring used flash to show off the Visor Edge when it was released (click & drag to rotate, etc). I also don't like how there's no alt-text tags on these Flash sites, forcing me to click around just to find out how to navigate the site.

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James Hromadka
Old Friend

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

Flash is good for making animations. The problem is that most web sites don't need animation--only specific stuff like the previously mentioned how-to guides, product demos, etc.

You CAN do good stuff with Powerpoint. It's just that most people fail at it, or get carried away with it. Don't blame Powerpoint itself for bad presentations (although PPT does have its own problems).

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 26

I think that if you minimize the amout of Flash on your site it's better. Using it for some things, like navigation, I think is a good idea. As long as it is clear as to where you're going, like what James mentioned. While redesigning our site here at work, we were going to use an HTML navigation at the top of the pager, but found problmes with that solution. Flash came to the rescue. Although it is a litte tricky the first few times you use it, it does work well.

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<A HREF="http://www.weather.com">What's your weather like?</A>
<A HREF="http://www.weather.com/multimedia">Prefer Video?</A>

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: King William, Virginia USA
Posts: 70

I don't think you can go wrong by only introducing complexity/exclusivity only when it's needed to convey a message and you warn people up front that it's coming. I do a couple of small sites for non-profits and try to only use widely-accepted HTML tags and only use multimedia to augment what's already there.

One of the best/worst examples of a Flash site I've experienced is the local Children's Museum - you can't get anything without Flash... I guess they just aren't interested in the kids who don't have access to the latest and greatest. Woo-Hoo! I figured I'd check it out prior to posting this and they've switched to HTML... maybe there's a message in there somewhere!

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
I loathe powerpoint. However, I have to disagree with your comment. Flash CAN, and OFTEN IS pointless. That said, there are certainly times when Flash is actually very useful and even quite appropriate for communicating particular information.

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Last edited by Gameboy70 on 05-01-2001 at 08:52 PM

Registered: May 2000
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 1429

and html is way cheaper

Wow. I'm surprised at how much negative flash feedback there is. I guess you guys don't like the ads on zdnet, either

It looks like I'll do everything in HTML, and than make a couple o flash animations.. Using the demo of flash of course

That's great.. look for the site in October !

Thank You

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-miradu

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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I guess you guys don't like the ads on zdnet, either

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Prison
Posts: 421

Wha??

As a Mac User, and a Netscape (well, now I use OmniWeb) User, I have to say I downright love Flash. I love how easy it is to use, I love how flexible the media abilities are, and I love how I can create special scripting affects, and not worry about it looking awesome on some browsers, and crappy on others.

Yes, there is a mess of ugly Flash websites out there, but I think if used right, it turns the web, into my mind, what it SHOULD be.


Feedback on this site: pockettoons.cjb.net while you're at it. I made it. There's no reason I used Flash over HTML with the exception that it adds life to the site.

I don't think it's the force that rids the world of creativity like Powerpoint, *cough hack!* either. It's difficult enough (and plenty expensive... yeesh!) to almost-successfully rid itself of the dummies who use it to trash the web.

In my Plug-In-O-Rama rating, Flash placed second, just behind Apple's Quicktime, which currently is the most versatile & USEFUL program/format in the world. Hell, it even integrates WITH Flash!

I think Flash has some disadvantages (mainly those of you with Stone-Age computers) but I'm on a nearly 3-year old iMac, and I have no trouble with Flash content.

Html makes the statement, Flash gives it the exclamation point, in my opinion. Being a fan of FlashTainment (back from the days of the Elian-Whazzup gig http://www.bonrop.net ) , I respect any website that sensibly uses Flash well. (meaning, they didn't use it to write an entire article, site, etc.)

And if you actually want to reach everyone, go with Flash, unless you're gonna go strict with HTML. (iCab's a great browser to test this out with.) Chances are, you'll use some internet-explorer only code, and leave those of us who are NOT under Microsoft's curse in the dark.

(P.S.)
RealPlayer and WM Player placed last for media content. Now they simply suck.

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<b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

I think the only Flash I saw on pockettoons was on the intro screen. The minor problem is that every time I return to the home page I have to sit through the "loading..." and animation. But aside from that, finding Flash on a site dedicated to "toons" is not really surprising or unwarranted.

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Prison
Posts: 421

><

You really should have NO reason to returning to the front page, unless you're visiting the site again. I used flash pretty sparingly.


And those of us with nice browsers will pick up the "return" code. (OmniWeb) which keeps you from going through that entire process!

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<b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

I pressed "home" because some sites bring you to a "news" page or something first, not the main home. That's what I figured happened on the pockettoons site, since I only saw "download now" instead of an intro to the site. (People who don't know what Tealmovie is could get pretty confused!)

I also find pressing "back" an intuitive and continuous way for me to figure out where I've been on a site or how I got there... that leads back to home pages quite often.

As to making web pages targetted at specific browsers, well that's your choice!

Again Flash seems natural for a "toon" page, but I think the above problems would be annoying if they happened on any other sites.

Registered: Jan 2001
Location:
Posts: 278

When I voted I said HTML/PHP because you want the site to be accesable to all users and to be easy to show information. This is not to saw that this is not possible to do with flash. When I build a site I either like to do all HTML or all Flash and not intermingle the two because then it makes it so that some people can see parts of the site and not all of it. I also make a intro page before the flash site, on some sites, saying that the site uses flash and give a link to get the flash player or the option to view and HTML site. I personally love Flash when it is done right and when it is used with a purpose. If someone is going to use Flash on a site just to show off then it is a waste of my bandwidth!

One really good flash site is http://www.fraboom.com which was made by Flying Rhinoceros http://www.flyingrhino.com
I have also seen flash movies that are really neat. I saw someone who had made about a five minute video to accompany a song.

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 268

Make both.

Use HTML as default. Then make a link on the main page for a Flash option.

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: June 10, 2001 San Clemente Pier , CA
Posts: 211

I'm so grateful that most Flash sites show a 'skip intro' button...Get me to the info!

Flash is almost always a 'commercial', tv-style.

I DO like instructional, read practical, Flash. ie tutorials like on dreamweaver, and the visor 360 site mentioned already.

I DO like Flash where is necessary, like on a cartoon or film site.

I DON'T like Flash when it's just a bunch of colored spheres flying around with pounding free muzak.
I've got different drugs for that.

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