Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 61

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
Your great uncle obviously didn't have a clue about the meaning of the flag. The meaning of the flag should be more along the lines of "love it or stage a revolution to get it to the way that you want it if you can come out on top". That's its origin after all.

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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fundamentalists of whatever stripe don't tolerate debate.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 61

i wonder how the suspended kids feel on the issue that we are discussing, besides the probable angry feelings

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Enumclaw, Wa
Posts: 268

Just to update what has been happening. Today the flag was sent off, they sent it by folding it into a 6x6 square then rolling it into a giant poster container type deal. It was sent to the Mayor of New York. Included was a letter written by the superintendent of our district.

I have to say before we rolled it up the flag looked great, every square inch was covered (except for the bottom row which someone decided to take for themseves, and we unfortunatly didn't notice until it was too late) with signatures and stories. Ranging from, "America Rox Hard, I love NY!!! Watch out for the Mariners!!!" To long, emotional, signings which were realy deep.

Despite all the problems this flag has caused I overall think it was a sucess. The story about the flag will be in the local newspaper, and possibly more. But my teacher doubted there would be any press involving the expulsions.

For the history of these kids, i'm sorry to say I don't know. Its hard to know all 1600 kids in our highschool, when youre a Freshmn and it is only the 3rd week of school.

Sorry about all these typos I spilled some water in my keyboard and now it skips about every 4th letter. Im trying to fix them all but im bound to miss a few.

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God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

Dev:

Great job. And I agree - go Mariners. I feel so bad for NY, it's unfortunate that we are going to add to their misery when the Yankees are knocked out of the playoffs by the Ms.

On a more serious note - back to my point on moral relativisim. The following article does a much better job of explaining what I was talking about.

http://nationalpost.com/commentary/...919/695473.html

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

VTL:

Interesting article. I agree. Anyone that would say "the US had it coming" is claiming that murdering 5000 was an appropriate reaction to our policies.

That said, I think we may have done things to instigate it. Which is what some of the people may have been trying to say in the article, but of course, came across as saying 'we had it coming'.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by shockwave869
the whole point of the american revolution was to get rid of serious oppression.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

VTL:
I don't know if you subscribe to USN&WR, but this column by John Leo seems to hit the nail on the head.

Look here.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

KC:

What did you make of the article? I didn't really find a point to it. I'm not sure if Leo is for or against what's going on...maybe he's just observing it...

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
KC:What did you make of the article? I didn't really find a point to it. I'm not sure if Leo is for or against what's going on...maybe he's just observing it...

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

K

I don't get USNWR, but I'd seen the article elsewhere. I think your analysis is correct.

Here's the thing. It used to be in the "good old days" that terrorists had demands, however delusional. You know, they hijack a plane and demand that their fraternal terrorist brothers held in some jail be released, or a million bucks to finance their cause, or something else. Or they blow something up with a clear goal; UK out of N. Ireland, etc. Some shadowy organization claims responsibility and makes a demand. The terror was a means to an end, at least in some sense.

Not any more. With these nutjobs, killing Americans seems to be the the end unto itself. No demand are made, no one takes responsibility - in fact, the "prime suspect" and everyone else denies it.

So there's no point in looking for root causes. There's no point in trying to fix the underlying problem. Instead, you "fix" the people who plan, support and carry out the terror.

As I've written elsewhere, you deal with these folks the way you deal with rabid dogs. You don't reason with them. You don't say "nice doggy" or give them a doggy biscut and hope that placates them. It won't. You put them down - because if you don't, they will do it to you.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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So there's no point in looking for root causes. There's no point in trying to fix the underlying problem. Instead, you "fix" the people who plan, support and carry out the terror.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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This is the quote that I appreciate most, although you probably didn't like it--"Whether these extremists and their terrorists are living in the 12th century or the sixth, it follows that the traditional soft Western search for the "root causes" or "understanding the pain of poverty that leads to violence" has no role.

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

Homer:

I don't think you read my whole post, or perhaps it's not clear. My point is there aren't any root causes to this tragedy, at least none that we are capable of addressing.

How can you prevent violent attacks when the people who carry out the attacks don't take responsiblity for them, and appear to have no real demands you could meet - even if you were inclined to do so?

If - as I suggest - the motivation behind these attacks is a visceral dislike of Western civilization and of Americans in particular, what exactly do you propose we do to head them off in the future?

My proposal is pretty simple - find the folks responsible, their supporters, and their sympathisers, and incarcerate or liquidate them. Sure, it won't be easy and you won't find them all, but every one you eliminate as a threat is one less who is going to blow something up. Plus, if you put enough of an effort into the process, even the ones you miss are hopefully too busy evading capture or termination to plan anything significant.

Your response to my rabies analogy is cute, but sort of misses the point - pointing out a limitation on the analogy. How exactly do we vaccinate the American people from being attacked by these folks? You can't unless you want to put them all in bomb-proof bunkers. So, you eliminate the problem another way, as I've suggested.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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I don't think you read my whole post, or perhaps it's not clear.

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It's probably a bit of both.

quote:

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My point is there aren't any root causes to this tragedy, at least none that we are capable of addressing.

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Well, this is probably where we'll have to agree to disagree. You may be right in that there perhaps the causes are ones we can't address. But the point I'm trying to make is how do we know, until we take the time figure things out?

quote:

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How can you prevent violent attacks when the people who carry out the attacks don't take responsiblity for them, and appear to have no real demands you could meet - even if you were inclined to do so?

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Preventing attacks is one thing and reducing the events and actions that we are involved in that possible lead to terrorists wanting to attack us is another. There really is no way to prevent the attacks unless we kill all of the terrorist...something I don't see as being a realistic goal. Eliminating the terrorists motivation is maybe something we can't do either, but it's something I'd like to see this country consider.

quote:

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If - as I suggest - the motivation behind these attacks is a visceral dislike of Western civilization and of Americans in particular, what exactly do you propose we do to head them off in the future?

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I don't know. Maybe a peaceful pull-out of that region? A reduction of US military presense world-wide? Less involvement in foreign governments for personal interests? Lots of hugs? I'm not sure. I'm just proposing we look into other options BEFORE we go to war. The old 'count to ten' rule of anger management.

quote:

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My proposal is pretty simple - find the folks responsible, their supporters, and their sympathisers, and incarcerate or liquidate them.

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I'm with you 100 percent! Now, how do we go about finding these folks?

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Sure, it won't be easy and you won't find them all, but every one you eliminate as a threat is one less who is going to blow something up.

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But you need to be careful here, too. Yes, each terrorist we kill is one less that will kill us...but it each terrorist we kill may trigger emotions in 5 other people that then decide to become terrorists. You want to take that bear out in one shot...not graze his shoulder and piss him off more.

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Plus, if you put enough of an effort into the process, even the ones you miss are hopefully too busy evading capture or termination to plan anything significant.

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Hmm...that's true. Good point.

quote:

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How exactly do we vaccinate the American people from being attacked by these folks?

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Touche! (damn analogies...always full of holes!)

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

quote:

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I don't know. Maybe a peaceful pull-out of that region? A reduction of US military presense world-wide? Less involvement in foreign governments for personal interests? Lots of hugs? I'm not sure. I'm just proposing we look into other options BEFORE we go to war. The old 'count to ten' rule of anger management

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Not realistic options.

1. Peaceful pull out of the region: Our military presence in the Middle East is at the invitation of the governments that host us - the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, etc. We are not forcibly occupying any piece of ground in the Middle East. While I wouldn't hold any of those governments up as models, they are the duly recognized governments of those states under international law. Are we going to let some thug with no legitimate claim on us force us out of the region? I think not.

2. A reduction in US military presence world-wide? Ditto - we are deployed by the invitation of local governments, or under U.N or NATO auspices. (Ironically, Bush wanted to cut down on some of our overseas committments. Not gonna happen now).

Besides, isolated griping to the contrary (i.e. the Iraqis, the North Koreans), most of the world wants us just where we are. We help preserve the balance of power, which deters violence on a grander scale. For example, if we withdrew from South Korea and Japan, the North Koreans might decide to lunge for Seoul. If we withdrew from the Middle East, Saddam would gobble up Kuwait and maybe the Saudis in a heartbeat - and remember, this is a guy who used chemical weapons on women and children.

3. Less involvement abroad in personal interests? Exactly whose interests should we be pursuing? Lichtenstein's?

4. More hugs? Well, much as I favor more hugs between the U.S., and, say, Swedish babes, I don't think that's what Osama and co. have in mind. Besides, based on the fact that he always seems to be wearing the same clothes and lives in caves, my guess is Osama doesn't smell so good. Count me out.

If you have some good ideas on how to address the root causes here, I'm open to them. None of the above qualifies. Until someone advances a better idea, I'm sticking with my original plan, which happens to be the President's plan as far as I can see:

Bury them in the "shallow grave" of history. And if doing so makes five other folks declare jihad, take them out too. Keep doing that until someone realizes that killing Americans in large lots is a great way to get your name added to the "Darwin Awards" wall of shame.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

I didn't say any of them were viable. I'm just saying we need to decide if there are viable options before going to war.

quote:

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A reduction in US military presence world-wide? Ditto - we are deployed by the invitation of local governments, or under U.N or NATO auspices.

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__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
I wonder why he called that a 'soft western' thing? Peaceful understanding of each other is not a western thing by any means, and, in fact, is often a part of eastern philospophy.

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

Homer:

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it fails to persuade. In particular, it mentions the spiraling violence between Isreal and the Palestinians as a probable cause. However, it has been conclusively proven that the hijacking plot was in motion well before the most recent escalation over there.

In terms of how the rest of the world sees us - you can always find evidence that some people don't like Americans or don't like the presence of American forces in their country. However, you are just speculating on how people really feel.

Your specific examples are also irrelevant. We do not have a significant military presence in Columbia, other than some advisors. Besides, I rather suspect the poor farmers - caught in a four-way crossfire between communist rebels, drug lords, right-wing death squads and the Columbian military - can keep things straight without a score card. Cuba is a whole different issue - we have treaty rights to the base in Cuba, and it's completely walled off from the rest of the country. Besides, who cares what Castro thinks? The guy's a dinosaur.

About folks wanting us there, I was referring mostly to governments. But go ahead and ask the rest of the world. Don't know how you go about doing it, but when you figure it out let us know.

You keep saying we need to look for root causes, but you have no idea of what they are or how to look for them. That's a prescription for inaction without end.

I think the President hit the nail on the head last night. We are dealing with an ideology (at least with the Taleban and Osama) that is anti-democratic. It advocates the death penalty for folks who dare to teach any faith other than their particular version of Islam. It makes it a crime for women to learn how to read. It blesses destroying historical treasures (like the statues of Bhudda they blew up) because they offend their particular, peculiar vision of Islam.

And last, but not least, it blesses killing 6,000+ American civilians.

These are bad people. So I'm sticking with the President's plan - an unmarked grave for Osama, the Taleban, and the terrorists whole approach to problem solving.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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However, it has been conclusively proven that the hijacking plot was in motion well before the most recent escalation over there.

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Last edited by homer on 09-21-2001 at 10:29 PM