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yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
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Posts: 1571

Skeptical

The U.S. is trying very hard to find a link between Saddam and Iraq. Do not be surprised to see "make up" evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda and the war drum beats ever louder.

Meanwhile, the real menace -- North Korea, is being ignored. Its obvious that U.S. picks on countries that cannot put up a good fight.

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12-14-2002 02:43 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
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Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
The U.S. is trying very hard to find a link between Saddam and Iraq.

heh

quote:
Do not be surprised to see "make up" evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda and the war drum beats ever louder.

If a picture turned up showing Saddam handing VX gas to UBL personally, you'd swear it was doctored.

quote:
Meanwhile, the real menace -- North Korea, is being ignored.

How is North Korea a real menace to us? You think they're going to start launching nuclear weapons at us? Oh wait, I thought you didn't believe they had them in the first place and _that_ accusation was fabricated as well.

quote:
Its obvious that U.S. picks on countries that cannot put up a good fight.

I'll refrain from the easy shot. As a final aside, skepticism is healthy as a general rule. I find it hard to classify your views of the US as pure skepticism, though.

12-14-2002 05:33 PM

yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
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Re: Re: Skeptical

The North Koreans are more of a threat to so called U.S interests than Iraq will ever be. They are capable of making missiles that can reach the shores of the U.S. That is why the U.S. is working on the baby Star Wars program. NOrth Korea admits that it have nukes and it is not afraid to use them. There are thousands of U.S troops at the DMR for a reason.

Propaganda is the most powerful form of brain washing today. From now on every terrorist act will be linked to Al Qaeda whether Al Qaeda has anything to do with it. The media would have us believe that Al Qaeda is an omnipresent organization with members spread out all over the world. In reality, the organization is a tight knit group of about 300 - 1000 islamic fundamentalists.

I am skeptical about the U.S on Iraq because of the hawks that Bush have as advisors. They were recommending that he attack Iraq 4 days after 9/11 even though there was absolutely no evidence that there was an Iraq connection then (or now for that matter).

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
heh[B]If a picture turned up showing Saddam handing VX gas to UBL personally, you'd swear it was doctored.[B]How is North Korea a real menace to us? You think they're going to start launching nuclear weapons at us? Oh wait, I thought you didn't believe they had them in the first place and _that_ accusation was fabricated as well.[B]I'll refrain from the easy shot. As a final aside, skepticism is healthy as a general rule. I find it hard to classify your views of the US as pure skepticism, though.

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12-15-2002 01:32 AM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

Hussein purports to have the support of his people -- check out those election results -- but being a dictator and an apparent control freak this may not be true.

Excuse me, but do you actually believe there is the slightest chance that Iraq's election was valid?

12-15-2002 03:54 PM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
The U.S. is trying very hard to find a link between Saddam and Iraq. Do not be surprised to see "make up" evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda and the war drum beats ever louder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Dec11.html

I will not be surprised to see you announce this was fabricated.

12-15-2002 04:02 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
The North Koreans are more of a threat to so called U.S interests than Iraq will ever be.

I suppose we'll just have to differ on opinion here.

quote:
They are capable of making missiles that can reach the shores of the U.S.

Capability is one thing. Likelihood of use or provision to those who would use is another.

quote:
That is why the U.S. is working on the baby Star Wars program. NOrth Korea admits that it have nukes and it is not afraid to use them.

FYI, the baby Star Wars program is probably rooted in reality as much as the original one was. Nice to see that you've been brainwashed by that tidbit of propaganda.

quote:
There are thousands of U.S troops at the DMR for a reason.

You think it's to prevent a nuclear launch?

quote:
Propaganda is the most powerful form of brain washing today.

Well, it's not the most powerful. I'd say that people's own internal knee-jerk reactions are far more powerful.

quote:
From now on every terrorist act will be linked to Al Qaeda whether Al Qaeda has anything to do with it.

Personally, I'm still surprised that there hasn't been an attempted tie-in with the sniper and anthrax yet, if this is true. After all, the circumstantial evidence in the media all points to it. The source of the Anthrax was supposedly a US Army strain. John Allen Williams used to be in the Army. The letters were mailed from Trenton, NJ around 9/11. JAW was living in Trenton around 9/11. One of the significant persons in the investigation for producing the Anthrax was taking a job at LSU in Baton Rouge. JAW was from Baton Rouge and still frequently visited there. He was also, of course, a Muslim convert, and had made sympathetic remarks about the 9/11 hijackers. And still, there haven't been any reports in the media suggesting any of that means anything.

quote:
The media would have us believe that Al Qaeda is an omnipresent organization with members spread out all over the world. In reality, the organization is a tight knit group of about 300 - 1000 islamic fundamentalists.

How would you know?

quote:
I am skeptical about the U.S on Iraq because of the hawks that Bush have as advisors. They were recommending that he attack Iraq 4 days after 9/11 even though there was absolutely no evidence that there was an Iraq connection then (or now for that matter).

And they still haven't attacked yet.

12-15-2002 05:43 PM

yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Re: Re: Skeptical

I read the story last week and laughed. Its like saying the police received a credible report that Uncle Joe's sister-in-law Sue may have commited murder sometime in June.

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Dec11.html

I will not be surprised to see you announce this was fabricated.

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12-15-2002 05:50 PM

yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

Come on Tpby. Are you saying that Baby Stars Wars is a blip of the imgination? They have done 8 tests (one just las week) and 5 of them succeeded. The Reagan Star Wars scheme was just a concept. Brainwashed I am not..at least not in this case.

You say that North Korea is less of a threat to U.S interests than Iraq. Are you saying that Saudi oil is more important than Japan (the world's second largest economy and major using trading partner), South Korea and the other states in South Asia?

The U.S. haven't attacked yet because of international pressure and internal advice from the likes of Colin Powell.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I suppose we'll just have to differ on opinion here.[B]Capability is one thing. Likelihood of use or provision to those who would use is another.[B]FYI, the baby Star Wars program is probably rooted in reality as much as the original one was. Nice to see that you've been brainwashed by that tidbit of propaganda.[B]You think it's to prevent a nuclear launch?[B]Well, it's not the most powerful. I'd say that people's own internal knee-jerk reactions are far more powerful.[B]Personally, I'm still surprised that there hasn't been an attempted tie-in with the sniper and anthrax yet, if this is true. After all, the circumstantial evidence in the media all points to it. The source of the Anthrax was supposedly a US Army strain. John Allen Williams used to be in the Army. The letters were mailed from Trenton, NJ around 9/11. JAW was living in Trenton around 9/11. One of the significant persons in the investigation for producing the Anthrax was taking a job at LSU in Baton Rouge. JAW was from Baton Rouge and still frequently visited there. He was also, of course, a Muslim convert, and had made sympathetic remarks about the 9/11 hijackers. And still, there haven't been any reports in the media suggesting any of that means anything.[B]How would you know?[B]And they still haven't attacked yet.

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12-15-2002 06:00 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
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Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Come on Tpby. Are you saying that Baby Stars Wars is a blip of the imgination?

No, I'm saying that the publications on it are just as much propaganda as anything else that you seem to disbelieve.

quote:
They have done 8 tests (one just las week) and 5 of them succeeded.

How do you know? Were you there? Why do you believe media reports on that more readily than anything else?

quote:
The Reagan Star Wars scheme was just a concept. Brainwashed I am not..at least not in this case.

I suppose we'll have to just disagree on that as well.

quote:
You say that North Korea is less of a threat to U.S interests than Iraq. Are you saying that Saudi oil is more important than Japan (the world's second largest economy and major using trading partner), South Korea and the other states in South Asia?

Do you think that North Korea is about to attack those countries with nuclear weapons? Also, I never mentioned anything about Saudi oil.

quote:
The U.S. haven't attacked yet because of international pressure and internal advice from the likes of Colin Powell.

Yes, the likes of the French and Colin Powell are clearly the only thing stopping the US from doing anything. Sounds like you're pushing some propaganda of your own.

12-15-2002 06:38 PM

yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

Lets face it, if it was for the hawks alone, the U.S would have invaded Iraq -- a sovereign nation eons ago.

The Baby Star Wars story could very be a fabrication...but 5/8 would not be good one.

Perhaps I should ask you why you feel there is a need fore the U.S. to spend billions of dollars and get hundreds of soldiers killed to invade Iraq. I do not see a reason for this.

Speaking of propaganda, I came across an interesting article earlier today: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1028-09.htm

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
No, I'm saying that the publications on it are just as much propaganda as anything else that you seem to disbelieve.[B]How do you know? Were you there? Why do you believe media reports on that more readily than anything else?[B]I suppose we'll have to just disagree on that as well.[B]Do you think that North Korea is about to attack those countries with nuclear weapons? Also, I never mentioned anything about Saudi oil.[B]Yes, the likes of the French and Colin Powell are clearly the only thing stopping the US from doing anything. Sounds like you're pushing some propaganda of your own.

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12-15-2002 06:46 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Lets face it, if it was for the hawks alone, the U.S would have invaded Iraq -- a sovereign nation eons ago.

If all the ifs were skiffs, we could all take a nice sail on the seas. I think you also give the President more power in your mind than he has in fact.

quote:
The Baby Star Wars story could very be a fabrication...but 5/8 would not be good one.

The best propaganda is always believable. The matrix has you.

quote:
Perhaps I should ask you why you feel there is a need fore the U.S. to spend billions of dollars and get hundreds of soldiers killed to invade Iraq. I do not see a reason for this.

Perhaps I should ask you why you think I feel there is a need for the U.S. to spend one dime or get one person killed to invade Iraq (most people tend to find my views rather isolationist, although I haven't advanced them here). Don't confuse a skepticism of Dubya's critics' propaganda to be an acceptance of Dubya's propaganda. I think the Canadians in the article were making a foolish, empty gesture. Ultimately, if the US doesn't attack, they'll be silly enough to think that they had something to do with it (much as you apparently think other countries are holding the US back), and if there is enough public support _to_ attack, four Canadians won't stop the bombs from dropping.

quote:
Speaking of propaganda, I came across an interesting article earlier today: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1028-09.htm

I'm not sure that we'd view this as propaganda related for the same reason.

12-15-2002 07:35 PM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

quote:
Originally posted by jazzlover

I could argue that the _other_ thing Dubya's position does is make it easier for more people on the other side of the conflict to believe that their only recourse is terrorism. If I hear the sword being rattled daily in the news, is it not more likely that I'll want to use my own?

And aren't you more likely to use that sword if you're convinced the other side won't?

12-15-2002 11:04 PM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I read the story last week and laughed. Its like saying the police received a credible report that Uncle Joe's sister-in-law Sue may have commited murder sometime in June.

Of course. It disagreed with your prejudices.

12-15-2002 11:05 PM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Lets face it, if it was for the hawks alone, the U.S would have invaded Iraq -- a sovereign nation eons ago.

And that would be a bad thing, because Hussein's regime is so open and enlightened.

Isn't there a little part of your brain going, "Hey -- I'm defending a murderous dictator?"

12-15-2002 11:07 PM

yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

Well the last time I checked Saddam was not the only murderous dictator in the world. I dont see the U.S sending soldiers and armaments to Africa or anywhere else where murderous dictators exists. The murderous dictator/weapons of mass destruction arguements is just a smoke screen.

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

And that would be a bad thing, because Hussein's regime is so open and enlightened.

Isn't there a little part of your brain going, "Hey -- I'm defending a murderous dictator?"

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12-21-2002 03:53 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Well the last time I checked Saddam was not the only murderous dictator in the world. I dont see the U.S sending soldiers and armaments to Africa or anywhere else where murderous dictators exists. The murderous dictator/weapons of mass destruction arguements is just a smoke screen.

I don't see why it's bad to do something you implicitly say is good because we don't do it everywhere. That's like not giving to charity because you aren't helping everyone.

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12-21-2002 08:14 PM

yardie
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

I am saying that U.S have ulterior motives for going into Iraq. Bottom line is that the U.S would not have been on war footing if Iraq was an African state.

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
I don't see why it's bad to do something you implicitly say is good because we don't do it everywhere. That's like not giving to charity because you aren't helping everyone.

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12-21-2002 10:35 PM

KRamsauer
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Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I am saying that U.S have ulterior motives for going into Iraq. Bottom line is that the U.S would not have been on war footing if Iraq was an African state.

Of course we do. But when good can be done in the world, I tend to support it. You seem to be implying it would be wrong to buy a hybrid car to save the environment because you also might save money on gas. Just because there are ulterior motives doesn't mean the action is wrong.

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12-21-2002 10:39 PM

yardie
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skeptical

OK then,

Then the government should tell the American people the real reason why they are sending their sons and daughters to fight in Iraq and stop the garbage about weapons of mass destruction and Saddam being an evil dictator.

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Of course we do. But when good can be done in the world, I tend to support it. You seem to be implying it would be wrong to buy a hybrid car to save the environment because you also might save money on gas. Just because there are ulterior motives doesn't mean the action is wrong.

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12-21-2002 10:44 PM

MarkEagle
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
...the government should tell the American people the real reason why they are sending their sons and daughters to fight in Iraq...

and that would be?...

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12-21-2002 11:03 PM

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