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septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

There is a contradiction here:

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
No matter what a minor may think, they are not mature enough, wise enough and informed enough to make the decisions of an adult.

So you're saying that a minor is unable to makde adult decisions.

quote:
the minor purposely and conciously chooses to make an adult decision

But here you're saying that they are able to make adult decisions.

Which is it. Either they can't, and they shouldn't be treated as adults; or they can, and they ought to be.

Yardie is right, we're incredibly inconsistent with teenagers. If we give responsibilities, we must also give rights. Period.

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08-17-2001 06:38 PM

yardie
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Ha Ha

If that are old enough and wise enough to be accountable for their actions (ie to kill somebody). Then it is my opinion that they are old enough and wise enough to vote for the people who are sending them to jail and to drink etc. In Canada youths are not treated as adults until they are 18 years old. Even if tried as adults, kids are given "kiddie" sentences..not adult sentences. I think this should be the way to go.

BTW how comes an 18 year old can get married but he or she cannot drink in most states? How comes that same 18 year old can drive (putting other folks in potential danger) but cannot go to the Pub to order a beer to kill his/her brain cells?

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
No matter what a minor may think, they are not mature enough, wise enough and informed enough to make the decisions of an adult. Of course the same can be said for SOME adults If, however, the minor purposely and conciously chooses to make an adult decision to commit a crime that results in adult circumstances, that person is responsible for making that adult decision and, in my opinion, should be punished the same as an adult.

- Burns

08-17-2001 06:44 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

I think that teenagers are capable of making adult decisions. They do it all of the time. I feel as though they don't always think things through (this isn't true for all teenagers). I think parents need to do a better job raising their children so that they can make the correct decisions when they have to. If parents teach the right principles in their homes, their children will be more likely to make the right choices in their lives. Having said that, I think that once a young person makes a decision and acts on it, they are responsible to face the consequences. The laws are established to give the youth time to develop and mature and gain some responsibility before their desisions can ultimately change the course of their lives. If they choose to break the laws, they deserve whatever punishment the law gives.

08-17-2001 07:27 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
If you are stating that being a world leader necessarily makes you hypocritical, I must disagree.

I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. Do you believe that lying is bad? Have you never told a lie? Even a little white lie to spare somebody's feelings? "Honey, does my butt look fat in this dress?"

quote:
President Carter, while most people would agree was an ineffective president a best, was and is one of the most humble national/world figures. His religous conscience has led him to make major contributions to less priviledged people in the US through Habitat for Humanity. When he broke with the branch of the Baptist Church that he had been with for decades, it was because he believed that some of their tenets were ethically wrong and rather than accept dogma he chose to persue his strong faith elsewhere. His efforts in negotiation post-presidency also appear to be out of genuine concern.

Perhaps, but really irrelevant to what I was saying.

08-17-2001 07:55 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Ok I'll jump in here!

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
3. Abortion: IMHO the women can choose to abort but should obtain legal permission from the father.

I would agree only under the circumstance that the time period for carrying it out be until the age of 18 (or as long as they remain dependents). After all, they still aren't considered viable to survive on their own until this point.

08-17-2001 08:01 PM

bradhaak
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 380

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. Do you believe that lying is bad? Have you never told a lie? Even a little white lie to spare somebody's feelings? "Honey, does my butt look fat in this dress?"

HEAR HEAR!

When I first saw the title of this thread, my thought was that of course they are hypocrites - They're human (in most cases). The only problem that I had was limiting it to American politicians or even politicians in general.

Human beings are hypocrites and the scum of the Earth. Accept it and move on. Maybe make an effort to be selectively hypcritical in what you perceive as good causes, but that's about the best that you can do.

08-17-2001 08:20 PM

PDAENVY
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Posts: 790

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. ... Perhaps, but really irrelevant to what I was saying.

While my comments about Carter may not relevant to what you meant, they most certainly are quite relevant to what you posted.

Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Sure, we all lie. But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting. Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!

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Last edited by PDAENVY on 08-17-2001 at 08:57 PM

08-17-2001 08:47 PM

Yorick
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by Burns
Our military is in trouble as far as size goes as it is right now because of how much Clinton desimated it
desimated? he took out the monkeys?

These soldiers protect the way of life of this country and they deserve more respect and admiration and support than most U.S. citizens give them.
While I'm aware of the need for a strong defense, excluding times of war and/or police action many of us don't hear of the good things military personnel do on a daily basis.
If we could only have an equal amount of military and education funding, I'd be happier.

In reference to the dealth penalty: What would you rather happen to a convicted murderer: 1) Punishment for the crime he/she has commited in direct proportion to the crime; 2) Confined leisure living with much of the same niceties of life that you and I enjoy like cable TV, internet, etc.

Not having spent any time in a prison, I'm uncertain as to the EXACT conditions, but I'm pretty sure they don't get all of those benefits, and let's not forget most inmates are put to work in a variety of state projects or are "rented" to firms with specific types of needs ... like customer service and order taking.

Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment, for those of you who are professed religious. Just look at the Old Testament in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, etc. Capital punishment was actually used in many more crimes than what it is today in the U.S.
I feel the killing of another person as punishment is a barbaric and outdated practice. The Bible originates from a more barbaric time and should not be used as justification.

In other words, everyone is a sinner, and anyone that sins is convicted and sentenced to death.
Life is a deadly sexually-transmitted disease. Let's get our doctors to work on that, it has to be stopped.
C'mon, your statement is ridiculous.

Originally posted by bradhaak
Human beings are hypocrites and the scum of the Earth.
ayup. Need to do us some skimming.

Originally posted by PDAENVY
Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Sure, we all lie.
on a daily basis. starting with the aliases we use here (exclusing those not using aliases, of course)

But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting.
I was thinking "super-wide roller" myself.

Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!
I find the biggest problem with getting our elected officials to stick to what they say they're going to do is enforcing it. We, in the general sense, select our leaders based on what they say they will do for us, and presumably vote accordingly. Once they're in office they could do a 180 on their promises and there's little that can be done by the people (even impeachment is a Congressional act). People ***** and moan and complain about how the people in charge aren't doing what we elected them to do. I'm not sure how to change that, but I'd sure like to. (I'd also like a trip to Europe, a decent car and to be able to pay all of my bills every month, but hey, we all have needs.)

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08-17-2001 09:29 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
chuckster and miradu, sweeping generalizations are only going to piss people off.

And the name of this thread is what?

08-17-2001 09:37 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
And the name of this thread is what?

Guess I'm a hypocrite.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-18-2001 05:46 AM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
O.K. first question is: How many of you who dislike the state of the United States have ever LIVED in another country? I grew up overseas, in one of the most corrupt countries with a one-sided government. Anyone who spoke against the leaders were imprisoned or were amazingly killed in some accident. The level of corruption in the U.S. is incredibly minute compared to other countries around the world.

That's nice. There's too much for my liking.

quote:
As far as missile defense and weapons of mass destruction go, how many of you making comments know someone who works in this arena? Well, as a matter of fact, I do: me. The missiles used in missile defense are NOT weapons of mass destruction. Bush is infact in favor of cutting back on the number of nuclear weapons in the U.S.

I caught this piss-poor argument before. Tell me exactly HOW he plans on removing the missles that are coming towards us. Big fishing nets? Sharp-shooters? Mimes launched from cannons?

quote:
As far as the military goes, I think many people take for granted that the U.S. is a super power. How did we become a super power? It wasn't with a military the size we have now, thanks to Clinton. Our military is in trouble as far as size goes as it is right now because of how much Clinton desimated it (he cut back the size of the military for those of you who don't know). These soldiers protect the way of life of this country and they deserve more respect and admiration and support than most U.S. citizens give them.

I want to know why I should give a rat's ass about being a super power. Peru isn't and they seem to be doing fine.

quote:
In reference to the dealth penalty: What would you rather happen to a convicted murderer: 1) Punishment for the crime he/she has commited in direct proportion to the crime; 2) Confined leisure living with much of the same niceties of life that you and I enjoy like cable TV, internet, etc.

Thank you for bringing that up. Instead of biasedly killing our criminals, they should be put to work for society. Our road construction workers make $10-$15 an hour. Our garbage men make close to the same. The government could afford Bush's tax cut if they weren't paying those wages. Most of them are seasonal jobs, so the people doing that work now aren't able to count that income as stable anyway.

quote:
Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment,

And against getting tattoos and/or any body piercings, homosexuality, eating pork, working on Sundays, slavery, having sex with a woman during her period, ad infinitum.

quote:
"The wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." In other words, everyone is a sinner, and anyone that sins is convicted and sentenced to death. Only belief and trust in Jesus Christ as the one who has taken that sentance in place of you will save you from that death penalty.

And you are able to correctly identify 100% of the time which incidences need to be punished by death according to the will of God? Were you around while bkbk was member?

That's [one of] my problem(s) with Religion. It takes a hell of a lot of hubris for any human or group of humans to claim they know God's intent. Were I God, I'd be pretty pissed.

quote:
China's human rights violations are not comparable to capital punishment in my opinion.

That's yours. Mine is that as long as we are seen killing children, any admonishments to other countries will be ignored.

quote:
The government supported killings that take place are not necessarily murderers or even criminals as we see them. They could be people that have spoken a word against the government in public. They could be children that happen to be an addition to a family that already has the government limit of children. The capital punishment issue isn't the only aspect of the human rights violations in China. I'm not going into them because they haven't been brought up yet.

I'm not saying that China doesn't have areas they need work on. There's that whole speck and splinter quote from the Bible that you should remember, though.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 08-19-2001 at 04:04 AM

08-18-2001 06:07 AM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
While my comments about Carter may not relevant to what you meant, they most certainly are quite relevant to what you posted.

Considering that you were unable to discern the clear meaning of what I posted, I maintain that it is still irrelevant.

quote:
Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Dictionary definitions really don't do much more than demonstrate the ability to cut and paste.

quote:
Sure, we all lie. But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting.

I really don't care how interesting it is. Is it the truth? If so, that's all that matters.

quote:
Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!

I said no such thing. Quite the contrary (I guess you ignored the parts I said about raising the bar for ourselves and those around us which would in turn eventually ripple to the officials we elect). As long as the general public holds itself to such a pitifully low standard, our elected officials really aren't going to be much to write home about either.

08-19-2001 06:34 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I want to know why I should give a rat's ass about being a super power. Peru isn't and they seem to be doing fine.

You were in Peru recently?

quote:
Thank you for bringing that up. Instead of biasedly killing our criminals, they should be put to work for society. Our road construction workers make $10-$15 an hour. Our garbage men make close to the same. The government could afford Bush's tax cut if they weren't paying those wages. Most of them are seasonal jobs, so the people doing that work now aren't able to count that income as stable anyway.

Road construction and garbage collection are 'seasonal'? What world do you live in? Also, none of that stuff is paid for directly at the federal level anyway.

quote:
That's yours. Mine is that as long as we are seen killing children, any admonishments to other countries will be ignored.

So we should ignore the admonishments of any countries which allow abortion?

quote:
I'm not saying that China doesn't have areas they need work on. There's that whole speck and splinter quote from the Bible that you should remember, though.

Ahem...which one are you suggesting is the one with the splinter/beam/(whatever your particular translation of Luke uses)?

08-19-2001 07:09 PM

Burns
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
I caught this piss-poor argument before. Tell me exactly HOW he plans on removing the missles that are coming towards us. Big fishing nets? Sharp-shooters? Mimes launched from cannons?

I'm definitely in favor of the mimes. That's hilarious

Have you been following the news recently. We successfully shot down a missile a couple of weeks ago during a test. Besides, do you not remember the patriot missiles during the Gulf War? It's a similar idea. But to answer your question seriously (in case it was asked seriously) it's done with a missile designed specifically for destroying another missile, not obliterating an entire city or even a city block. Research it! there's plenty of info about how it's done.

- Burns

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08-20-2001 04:37 AM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
You were in Peru recently?

No. I pulled a country off the top of my head to demonstrate that being a superpower isn't a necessity for quality of life. I should've picked Switzerland or Japan instead.

quote:
Road construction and garbage collection are 'seasonal'? What world do you live in?

road construction, yes. It's hard to work on a road that's covered in 6" of ice and snow. Garbage is year-round. Again, I could've picked better examples.

quote:
Also, none of that stuff is paid for directly at the federal level anyway.

Good point. I'm sure a solution could be reached.

quote:
So we should ignore the admonishments of any countries which allow abortion?

Absolutely not. We shouldn't ignore the admonishments of anyone. My point is that China already has a track record for ignoring the requests of other countries (supplying weapons to Iran and North Korea come to mind - allow me to check for accuracy) and then claiming that we do the same (in supplying weapons to Taiwan), so it's all the same to them. IOW, America should consider all criticism, but should also be prepared to have its criticism rejected in cases of hypocrisy - as per human nature. Rather, they should work to eliminate hypocrisy.

quote:
Ahem...which one are you suggesting is the one with the splinter/beam/(whatever your particular translation of Luke uses)?

Magnitude wasn't a consideration in my mind when I posted the allusion.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-20-2001 05:31 AM

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