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What's your dream CF/SM module?

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hxh167
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

What's your requirements for a perfect CF or SM module? What kind of functions would you like to see on your module? Let's list them and tell the manufacturers what WE want.

Here is my list:
1.REAL springborad module--with flash on card to store applications.
2.FileMover, Backup functions are required applications on module.
3.Document reader, picture viewer, movie viewer, and dictionary are optional. If it has these, great. If not, I can live with it.
4.VFS support is required so I don't need to bother these software developers hard to get the module supported by the softwares I need.
5.If it has AutoCF or PiDirect function, great. If not, I can live with it.

hxh167 is offline Old Post 05-31-2001 10:36 PM
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Yorick
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I wanted the (last-I-heard-it-was-cancelled) InnoGear SixPak, with a modem, cel phone port, voice recorder, two silent alerts (vibe & flashing light) and memory/storage.

I'd also like a voice recorder/MP3 player that uses *inexpensive* (say, ten bucks or less per unit) removeable media of at least 64MB apiece.

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Yorick is offline Old Post 06-01-2001 06:54 AM
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EricG
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Memplug, and I have it already

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EricG is offline Old Post 06-02-2001 05:26 AM
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yardie
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I agree

quote:
Originally posted by hxh167
What's your requirements for a perfect CF or SM module? What kind of functions would you like to see on your module? Let's list them and tell the manufacturers what WE want.

Here is my list:
1.REAL springborad module--with flash on card to store applications.
2.FileMover, Backup functions are required applications on module.
3.Document reader, picture viewer, movie viewer, and dictionary are optional. If it has these, great. If not, I can live with it.
4.VFS support is required so I don't need to bother these software developers hard to get the module supported by the softwares I need.
5.If it has AutoCF or PiDirect function, great. If not, I can live with it.



I agree with all the above. That would be my perfect Springboard CF solution too. VFS is a must.

yardie is offline Old Post 06-02-2001 06:45 AM
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Kintama
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Registered: Apr 2001
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Readable and writable ram module that doesn't require any odd backkup or file moving software... just adds more base ram.

That is my dream module.

James

Kintama is offline Old Post 06-02-2001 08:24 AM
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culo77
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Registered: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 236

my dream module would be the:
GIRLGONEWILD module for those days your on the go

culo77 is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 01:20 PM
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yardie
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Thumbs up Re: I agree

quote:
Originally posted by yardie


I agree with all the above. That would be my perfect Springboard CF solution too. VFS is a must.



Just to add to this. It seems that everyone here has gone ga ga over the Memplug solution. I have decided to stick with the Dave/Kopsis solution. In fact, I will be "upgrading" my innopocket module to the Flash version. Why am I staying with Kopsis? VFS! VFS support will be added to the FileMover app within a few weeks. There is a strong possibility that this will work on Older units (ie Visor Deluxes) as well.

Based on my research, I have concluded that VFS is the better solution for me.

yardie is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 04:12 PM
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hxh167
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Thumbs up Dave/ Kopsis answered questions.

Here are some answers from Dave/Kopsis for questions about the differences between VFS(Virtual File System) and PiDirect:

> Now that all the details of PiDirect is on their web site. i would
> like to know the differences between the two without all the jargon.


It's really tough to explain all this in non-technical terms, but I'll
give it a shot.


> 1. How are they similar?


Both solutions give apps a way to read data from the memory
card. PiDirect "tricks" the OS into thinking that one of the
directories on the CF card is built-in read only memory. VFS doesn't
do any tricks, it just gives apps a standard way to access data on the
memory card.


> 2. How do they work?


PiDirect is transparent to the applications. Databases stored on the
card are accessed by the applications just as if they were stored in
RAM (except no writing is allowed). VFS requires that applications be
designed to work with an removable storage memory card. Since it is a
Palm standard, any app written to use VFS functions will work with
SD/MMC cards on a Palm m50x, MemorySticks on a Clie, and CF cards on a
TRGPro. When we have a VFS solution for FlashAdapter, those same apps
will work with it.


Of course the app launcher is really just a regular Palm OS
application, so PiDirect will let the launcher "see" and run apps that
are stored on the memory card. VFS requires that the launcher
"understand" the concept of memory cards, so a third party launcher
(such as Launcher III or SilverScreen) will be required to launch apps
from CF via VFS.


> 3. WHat are the differences in functionality?
>
> 4. What are the pros/cons or advantages/disadvantages of each?


PiDirect lets existing apps use the memory card without their
knowledge. VFS requires that apps be "designed" to use a memory
card. The former has the advantage of making a wider range of apps
"memory card compatible", but the downside is that the methods that
existing apps use to access databases are *very* inefficient for
accessing data that is stored in files. Applications specifically
designed to work with a memory card understand the pros and cons of
getting their data that way and can be designed to access the data in
much more efficient ways. Lastly, PiDirect doesn't allow apps to write
to the memory card. That's not a problem for reference databases and
read only documents, but there are many cases where a read/write
solution is better. For example, I *predict* you will see a version of
AvantGo within the next year that will be able to store web content on
a memory card using VFS.


> 5. Which is better for large files and why?


Both have the potential to work equally well. However, PiDirect will
only work well with large files that are broken into many small
database records. Many files are like this, but some (such as
Mapopolis maps) are pretty much just one big record so PiDirect
becomes nothing more than an automover in that case.


> 6. If I have 1 MB of space left on my Visor and have a 5 MB document
> I want to view, would I be able to do it with any of these solutions?


As I indicated above, in the case of PiDirect, it depends on the
database format. If we're talking Aportis Doc format, then yes, you
would be able to view the 5MB doc on a Visor with 1MB of RAM free. But
the FlashAdapter can do the same now with CSpotRun, and future VFS
enabled doc readers will give you the same capability.


Now one last thing to keep in mind is that an application like MSMount
uses VFS functions to provide capabilities very similar to
PiDirect. So with VFS you have the potential to get the best of both
worlds.


--
- Dave Kessler
President - Kopsis, Inc.
http://kopsisengineering.com

hxh167 is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 04:54 PM
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septimus
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Registered: Feb 2001
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Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by hxh167
1.REAL springborad module--with flash on card to store applications.

InnoPocket
quote:
2.FileMover, Backup functions are required applications on module.

FaFileMover, JackBack
quote:
3.Document reader, picture viewer, movie viewer, and dictionary are optional. If it has these, great. If not, I can live with it.

CSpotRun, VFS will add many more
quote:
4.VFS support is required so I don't need to bother these software developers hard to get the module supported by the softwares I need.

On the way, I'm betting by July
quote:
5.If it has AutoCF or PiDirect function, great. If not, I can live with it.

Once VFS is done, MSMount will do it.

In other words, Our CF cards (or SM, if you like that) should work exactly as the expansion slot in the new M series! Patience....

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septimus is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 05:00 PM
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hxh167
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Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

Smile

BTW,
I forgot to mention one MUST:
This module must support VDX. I am a Visor Deluxe user and I need this module to support my VDX.

hxh167 is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 05:40 PM
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yardie
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Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by hxh167
BTW,
I forgot to mention one MUST:
This module must support VDX. I am a Visor Deluxe user and I need this module to support my VDX.



Well according to Dave, chances are good that the VFS enabled software will run on the Visor Deluxe as well.

yardie is offline Old Post 06-04-2001 08:00 PM
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dvIceT
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Posts: 152

Re: Dave/ Kopsis answered questions.

quote:
Originally posted by hxh167
Here are some answers from Dave/Kopsis for questions about the differences between VFS(Virtual File System) and PiDirect:

> Now that all the details of PiDirect is on their web site. i would
> like to know the differences between the two without all the jargon.


It's really tough to explain all this in non-technical terms, but I'll
give it a shot.
...
Now one last thing to keep in mind is that an application like MSMount
uses VFS functions to provide capabilities very similar to
PiDirect. So with VFS you have the potential to get the best of both
worlds.


--
- Dave Kessler
President - Kopsis, Inc.
http://kopsisengineering.com



I was a little worried from reading recent Flashadapter Yahoo Group summaries that frustration was growing there due to the onslaught of recent MemPlug enhancements. There was a little criticism of the MemPlug software developers' programming acumen, talk of PI Technology "rushing" products to market, conspiracy-weaving around the "suspicious" timing of PI Technology's product announcements to coincide with Dave Kessler's vacation. I guess my worries were unfounded, because the Q&A with Dave Kessler is admirably fair, even-handed, and informational.

Thanks for the info.

dvIceT is offline Old Post 06-05-2001 10:20 AM
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mshe
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Registered: Apr 2001
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Posts: 28

Well companies do this all the time.

Memplug is a competitor, and if they sat back and let the other CF modules take the limelight, then no one would buy it when it does come out.


This happens in all industries... just look at the video game console market and automotive industry.

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septimus
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Posts: 1758

Seems to me that PiMover is first to come to the party, but only because they didn't spend the time to get dressed! They do have Noah Pro support now, but how many other developers will be willing to recode their app for this nonstandard API? I know I've been going after PI a bit much lately, but I'm boggled by their decision to implement something nonstandard, when the could have just as easily spent their time pursuing the standard VFS.

Could somebody please explain why PI did it this way. To get a module out first? Easier? Cheaper? Desire to form a new standard that they control?

It's entirely possible that I just don't understand the programming involved sufficiently. Could somebody explain?

...Otherwise, I'll take a CF module that gets dressed before the party.

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septimus is offline Old Post 06-05-2001 01:53 PM
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hxh167
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quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn
Seems to me that PiMover is first to come to the party, but only because they didn't spend the time to get dressed! They do have Noah Pro support now, but how many other developers will be willing to recode their app for this nonstandard API?

They are NOT the first to the party. On the contrary, Dave from Kopsis, Inc. is the first who start all these CF "thing". If you are one of the home-brew adapter maker, you know what I meant. Does MemPlug have a version of Noah Pro to support them? It's odd that I don't know where I can get it. Please tell me. As I know the only 3rd party software supporting them is CSpotRun except the softwares originally included on the module. Don't tell me about these PiDirect related softwares because I cannot find them and I cannot use them (I am a VDX user). I don't like their philosophy either. They should get one software as good as possible instead of rushing everything out. Even before the PiDirect project, they should ask Palm or Handspring what they might have for the future(I mean like VFS) and ask us users what we REALLY want to have intead of bearing their heads in the dark and doing things secretly. I think Dave is much smarter on this compared to these people in HongKong. Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate these people's efforts to give us more choices. But I just think they are making mistakes rather than willing to correct it.

hxh167 is offline Old Post 06-05-2001 05:07 PM
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dvIceT
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quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn
Seems to me that PiMover is first to come to the party, but only because they didn't spend the time to get dressed! They do have Noah Pro support now, but how many other developers will be willing to recode their app for this nonstandard API? I know I've been going after PI a bit much lately, but I'm boggled by their decision to implement something nonstandard, when the could have just as easily spent their time pursuing the standard VFS.

Could somebody please explain why PI did it this way. To get a module out first? Easier? Cheaper? Desire to form a new standard that they control?

It's entirely possible that I just don't understand the programming involved sufficiently. Could somebody explain?

...Otherwise, I'll take a CF module that gets dressed before the party.



quote:
Originally posted by hxh167

They are NOT the first to the party. On the contrary, Dave from Kopsis, Inc. is the first who start all these CF "thing". If you are one of the home-brew adapter maker, you know what I meant. Does MemPlug have a version of Noah Pro to support them? It's odd that I don't know where I can get it. Please tell me. As I know the only 3rd party software supporting them is CSpotRun except the softwares originally included on the module. Don't tell me about these PiDirect related softwares because I cannot find them and I cannot use them (I am a VDX user). I don't like their philosophy either. They should get one software as good as possible instead of rushing everything out. Even before the PiDirect project, they should ask Palm or Handspring what they might have for the future(I mean like VFS) and ask us users what we REALLY want to have intead of bearing their heads in the dark and doing things secretly. I think Dave is much smarter on this compared to these people in HongKong. Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate these people's efforts to give us more choices. But I just think they are making mistakes rather than willing to correct it.



I hear where you guys are coming from, but VFS support is tougher to develop than PiDirect according to Flashadapter inventor Dave Kessler. In addition, VFS would be of little use right now w/o MSMount, which isn't guaranteed to work with all VFS implementations. Applications will eventually need to be VFS-enabled, but that is slow in coming. Even TealMovie has a Memplug-enabled beta now, while VFS-enabled TealMovie is still being worked on.

Another fact to keep in mind is that VFS is officially a part of PalmOS 4.0, which probably wasn't fully documented at the time MemPlug hardware and software development began. I think PiDirect, at the very least, will be a very capable bridge technology to tide us over until VFS support becomes a real factor on the developer's side. I'm a little surprised/disappointed the Flashadapter folks haven't provided a similar bridge for their users in the meantime.

dvIceT is offline Old Post 06-05-2001 09:33 PM
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septimus
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quote:
Originally posted by dvIceT
I think PiDirect, at the very least, will be a very capable bridge technology to tide us over until VFS support becomes a real factor on the developer's side. I'm a little surprised/disappointed the Flashadapter folks haven't provided a similar bridge for their users in the meantime.


Right. Agreed. I'm thinking, however, that it will be a very short bridge!

I do know that Kopsis is building the VFS with an eye towards making it compatible with OS 3.1 and also with MSMount, and that the beta should be available to registered FAFilemover users soon, the goal being 2 weeks.

I suppose that I would feel different if I had a memplug in my hands, but I don't, so I'm more inclined to wait and see than I am to drop money on the bridge solution.

And, of course, I have to say that I never meant to go after the programming skill of PI, I just wondered why they chose what seemed to be a stopgap solution. It looks like it's fairly easy to integrate the Memplug API into software, so this may just be a nonissue: everything will have both...?

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septimus is offline Old Post 06-05-2001 09:38 PM
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hxh167
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quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

Right. Agreed. I'm thinking, however, that it will be a very short bridge!



Agreed. I am almost 100% sure the bridge would be very short. Think about BackupBuddy already has VFS support right after the M50x series with OS4. It looks like it's not so difficult compared to write a version for Memplug. Besides, a lot of software authors are reluctant to support Memplug because the market is limited to very few users compared to the whole Palm OS market. This is why I say Dave will get us more by get us the VFS stuff.

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PiDeveloper
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quote:
Originally posted by dvIceT




I hear where you guys are coming from, but VFS support is tougher to develop than PiDirect according to Flashadapter inventor Dave Kessler. In addition, VFS would be of little use right now w/o MSMount, which isn't guaranteed to work with all VFS implementations. Applications will eventually need to be VFS-enabled, but that is slow in coming. Even TealMovie has a Memplug-enabled beta now, while VFS-enabled TealMovie is still being worked on.

Another fact to keep in mind is that VFS is officially a part of PalmOS 4.0, which probably wasn't fully documented at the time MemPlug hardware and software development began. I think PiDirect, at the very least, will be a very capable bridge technology to tide us over until VFS support becomes a real factor on the developer's side. I'm a little surprised/disappointed the Flashadapter folks haven't provided a similar bridge for their users in the meantime.



VFS support is tough, but may not be tougher than PiDirect.
We work on PiDirect first, because we find our users would benefit most with PiDirect support while most Palm Applications available are still not VFS awared.

But we have also noticed the need of standarization, Memplug with VFS support will be our next focus, and we will provide free update for memplug users once it is available.

Noah Pro with memplug support can be downloaded from palmGear. While TealMovie is in its beta and can be obtained from their website, LauncherIII is in its beta but not public release yet. Still many other venders are working on Memplug support. and our webpage will list out our 3rd party software solutions soon.

- PiDeveloper

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enhanceyourlife
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If VFS is a PalmOS 4.0 technology, that means that no Visors will be able to run it?

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