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dick-richardson
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
*sigh* Then why would you assume that the Chinese people are any more aware of what their leaders are doing especially since they don't have freedom of the press?

We sure seem to know what's going on over there with enough certainty to warrant criticism.

note: this doesn't answer your question. My answer to your question is that their populace probably has less idea what their gov't is doing than the average American. IOW, I agree. My response is merely a criticism of the apparent omniscience Americans seem to believe they possess.

quote:
Like what?

Pick any two accusations that our gov't has made against them.

quote:
I think you're being a bit naive here.

That's funny. I was thinking that you weren't giving the Chinese populace any intellectual credit and blindly believing our media's hype. If their culture is so much different and everyone over there is entirely pleased with how their country is being run, why do we need to evangelize?

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-25-2001 01:15 AM

dick-richardson
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
The current system being tested uses a kinetic kill vehicle, so it can't be made destructive at all. It's basically a big bullet moving really, really fast.

My problem has never been the capabilities that we will put into NMD. It's been one of potential. What could those capabilities be?

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-25-2001 01:24 AM

VTL
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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

I'm no expert in the field (dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a rocket scientist), but I did study this sort of thing a bit in college - I was an international relations major - and I've tried to keep up with it since. It would be very difficult to redesign the current interceptor rocket to carry a destructive payload that would be used against a ground target. Different guidance system, completely different warhead/payload.

Besides, what's the point? We already have perfectly good offensive ICBMs in abundance, not to mention nuke-capable cruise missles and manned bombers. There would be no need to go to the trouble and expense to redesign on a missle interceptor to turn it into an offensive weapon.

I favor NMD, but I agree there are good objections to deploying it. The possibility that the current system could be redesigned for an offensive purpose is not one of them.

08-26-2001 05:34 AM

Yorick
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by Burns
O.K. You obviously missed my point. That point was a clarification as to why the intercept missile could not be used as an ICBM as proposed by a few people on this thread. The intercept missile is definitely capable (as shown in the test).

I don't believe I missed anybody's point, I just didn't put six and three together and see where that part of the discussion started. Thanks for the clarification.

Could happen but which one and how many do they take out and where are they???? These companies are NOT stupid. If you and I can come up with these questions, believe me, the U.S. government and military can too and they'll definitely ask the companies working on these projects.

Well, I hope so ... but the military has a tendency to screw things up (the Bradley comes to mind).

Have you ever heard of an attack on satellites? I haven't.
I've seen too many movies.

And it would require a simultaneous destruction of the ENTIRE network and it's backups or else the other satellites would show what's happening. I'm not listing numbers but let's just say it would take an incredible amount of firepower to do that.
Well, the Pentagon had a bit o trouble with the Code Red virus (or the other one, I forget) so it's not that difficult ...

nuff said for now. Bring it.
Bring what? my lunch?

I'm not trying to bait you or anything, Burns. I've never thought SDI was a good idea - I even had to do a paper on it once, back in the Reagan administration - and I still can't find a compelling reason to think it would be an effective deterrant. If anything, it may be seen as provocation. And what happens if/when one of these missiles sees an airplane from, say, France coming into O'Hare and decides it's actually a nuclear warhead sent to destroy our way of life?

VTL brings up some valid points about the likelihood of satelite or command destruction. Though I still feel there's a possibility, perhaps it's not as possible as what I've written paints it as.

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08-26-2001 03:21 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
The possibility that the current system could be redesigned for an offensive purpose is not one of them.

You're a day late and a dollar short. Burns covered that already.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-26-2001 03:34 PM

Burns
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
Bring it

Been watching too much of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda

- Burns

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08-27-2001 01:09 AM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
We sure seem to know what's going on over there with enough certainty to warrant criticism.

If a non-Chinese citizen witnesses something, why would you think the Chinese government would instigate an international incident by trying to do something serious to them?

quote:
note: this doesn't answer your question. My answer to your question is that their populace probably has less idea what their gov't is doing than the average American. IOW, I agree. My response is merely a criticism of the apparent omniscience Americans seem to believe they possess.

I couldn't care less about what some hypothetical Americans think they possess. None of these Americans seem to have ever crossed my path. Most of the ones I know are pretty sure that their government and the media aren't telling them the whole truth all the time.

quote:
Pick any two accusations that our gov't has made against them.

That's a cop-out, but how about forced abortions and reproductive limitations?

quote:
That's funny. I was thinking that you weren't giving the Chinese populace any intellectual credit and blindly believing our media's hype.

Intellect has nothing to do with it. I'm sure that on the whole, the Chinese are just as intelligent as anyone else. What does that have to do with culture, though? Intelligence doesn't necessarily change one's view of an individual's place in their society.

quote:
If their culture is so much different and everyone over there is entirely pleased with how their country is being run, why do we need to evangelize?

I never said everyone there was entirely pleased with how their country was being run. Don't put words into my mouth. I'm sure that there is a significant bit of unhappiness about it (just look at Tiananmen Square). However, generally, their culture has a much longer viewpoint than ours, and they don't always consider immediate change worthy of 'rocking the boat'.

08-27-2001 03:03 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
If a non-Chinese citizen witnesses something, why would you think the Chinese government would instigate an international incident by trying to do something serious to them?

They wouldn't, but I don't understand how that relates to my point.

quote:
I couldn't care less about what some hypothetical Americans think they possess. None of these Americans seem to have ever crossed my path. Most of the ones I know are pretty sure that their government and the media aren't telling them the whole truth all the time.

Hmmmm. While most of the ones I know don't believe their being told the whole truth, they do believe they aren't being flat-out lied to, and they seem to have no problem to believe whatever they are fed by the media when it comes to other countries, China and Russia in particular.

quote:
That's a cop-out, but how about forced abortions and reproductive limitations?

Wasn't meant as a cop-out. I'm not sure about the average Chinese feelings about the issues you mention. You can't be, either. I'm sure the billion or so Chinese have the ability to change things for themselves without America securing for them what they really want and just don't know. America wants to kill criminals and babies while expanding the military, that all great and good. If America wants to criticize China for killing babies and criminals while expanding their military, that wonderful, too. My problem comes in when America wants to do both at the same time.

quote:
Intellect has nothing to do with it. I'm sure that on the whole, the Chinese are just as intelligent as anyone else. What does that have to do with culture, though? Intelligence doesn't necessarily change one's view of an individual's place in their society.

Right.

quote:
I never said everyone there was entirely pleased with how their country was being run. Don't put words into my mouth. I'm sure that there is a significant bit of unhappiness about it (just look at Tiananmen Square). However, generally, their culture has a much longer viewpoint than ours, and they don't always consider immediate change worthy of 'rocking the boat'.

Not putting words in your mouth. This is an exercise in clarification. What makes you think they have a longer viewpoint than ours? And why would that longer viewpoint necessitate evangelization?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

08-27-2001 11:44 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
They wouldn't, but I don't understand how that relates to my point.

It would be how we might know something that happens there that the average Chinese citizen might not find out about. If one of their citizens witnesses something they shouldn't, they might be able to ensure it doesn't go any farther. The same can't be said about a CNN reporter.

quote:
Hmmmm. While most of the ones I know don't believe their being told the whole truth, they do believe they aren't being flat-out lied to, and they seem to have no problem to believe whatever they are fed by the media when it comes to other countries, China and Russia in particular.

According to numbers from Pew Internet that I saw yesterday, only about 31% of the people they surveyed believed that their government was telling them the truth either most or all of the time. That means that 69% don't believe that. Besides, I doubt if we're ever flat-out lied to by them anyway. The most effective lies always contain at least some truths. A bald-faced lie can usually be proven as such pretty easily.

quote:
Wasn't meant as a cop-out. I'm not sure about the average Chinese feelings about the issues you mention.

I doubt they like it much, but I can pretty much guarantee that it would cause some serious problems here if it were tried. Reproduction being a basic natural instinct would seem to be one of those 'regardless of flags' issues that you mentioned, but I don't see the Chinese overthrowing their government (or even putting up much in the way of protest) for it. Further considering that there are quite a few motivated parties who would love to expose such protests being put down, I can't see how they could escape notice.

quote:
You can't be, either.

Therein lies the rub. I never claimed to be sure about anything about them (nor about Americans in general either).

quote:
I'm sure the billion or so Chinese have the ability to change things for themselves without America securing for them what they really want and just don't know.

How are you so sure? How exactly are they going to overthrow their military (if they were so inclined) when they have no weapons?

quote:
America wants to kill criminals and babies while expanding the military, that all great and good. If America wants to criticize China for killing babies and criminals while expanding their military, that wonderful, too. My problem comes in when America wants to do both at the same time.

So, Americans allowing women the choice to kill their own unborn babies, and killing criminals who are convicted by a jury of their peers and allowed a generous appeals process is no different from the Chinese government forcing women to have abortions and killing criminals under a much more streamlined 'process'?

quote:
Not putting words in your mouth.

Your question was phrased in a way which attributed a viewpoint to me which I don't hold.

quote:
This is an exercise in clarification.

It's seeming like an exercise in futility to me at this point.

quote:
What makes you think they have a longer viewpoint than ours?

Stuff I've read combined with anecdotal experiences.

quote:
And why would that longer viewpoint necessitate evangelization?

Non sequitur.

08-28-2001 03:22 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
It's seeming like an exercise in futility to me at this point.

Agreed.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

09-05-2001 05:35 AM

VTL
Member

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

An interesting article in the NYT on Sunday 9/10 about China's capital punishment system. According to the article, China has executed as many people over the last year as the rest of the world put together; has executed as many as 191 people in a single day; and 3,000 since April of this year. Executions are carried out for relatively minor crimes (like bribery, tax fraud, drug trafficing to stealing diesel fuel).

Convictions and death sentances are sometimes handed down within just a few months or even days of the initial arrest - contrasted with the endless appeals and decade-plus delays in the U.S.

Many of the convictions are based on "confessions" that are extracted under torture. Since no fewer than 21 prisoners were tortured to death a few years ago (probably underreported), it can be quite effective.

The article notes that these totals are probably too small, as most executions are not reported in the press.

Here's my point. You can disagree with America's approach to capital punishment and other issues - I do in many ways. That doesn't mean that we are anywhere near as bad as the PRC, or that we are precluded from critisizing their human rights record.

09-10-2001 05:35 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
[...] Here's my point. You can disagree with America's approach to capital punishment and other issues - I do in many ways. That doesn't mean that we are anywhere near as bad as the PRC, or that we are precluded from critisizing their human rights record.

Hmmm...I think that might point out a flaw here. Josh's original rant mentioned the rate of capital punishment. Perhaps that's not the best measure to use for a judgement, then, since China's population makes their rate seem lesser than the actual numbers show (if they're executing more than the rest of the world combined).

09-10-2001 06:21 PM

VTL
Member

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

I'm not sure that's true, given the numbers set forth in the NYT article. I haven't sat down and done the math, but even with its much larger population, I think the PRC is still executing folks at a much higher rate than we are.

Besides, the rate itself isn't the only issue. As set forth in the article, there are huge procedural problems with the death penalty in China, where you can be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, exhaust your appeals, and be put up against the wall and shot - all within the same month.

09-10-2001 09:53 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
I'm not sure that's true, given the numbers set forth in the NYT article. I haven't sat down and done the math, but even with its much larger population, I think the PRC is still executing folks at a much higher rate than we are.

Is the article available online?

quote:
Besides, the rate itself isn't the only issue. As set forth in the article, there are huge procedural problems with the death penalty in China, where you can be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, exhaust your appeals, and be put up against the wall and shot - all within the same month.

Sure, and I think I mentioned that earlier within the thread. Josh might accuse you of being duped by the media, though.

09-11-2001 12:10 AM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Sure, and I think I mentioned that earlier within the thread. Josh might accuse you of being duped by the media, though.

The numbers are solid, and the reasons stated for the executions seem solid. I've never denied that China has problems they need to deal with - merely the severity portrayed by our media and our responsibility to lay blame when our hands are stained as well.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

09-11-2001 02:10 AM

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