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chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

I don't want to upset anyone, I removed part of my post to prevent that. I hope no offence was/is taken to any of my opinions. That is what they are...opinions. So, if I have upset anyone with any posts that I have made, I'm sorry.

08-17-2001 04:12 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

All world leaders are hypocrites. They're human. Why should a title give some schmuck any more intelligence/wisdom/whatever than the rest of the dregs that are humanity? You want better leaders? Strive to make yourself and those around you better people. Stop worrying about what religion or party they belong to. Start thinking like a person, not like an idealogue. Raise your own personal bar and try to get others to do the same. Imagine there's no country ...

08-17-2001 05:13 PM

sowens
Member

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 284

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
Your attempt to correct the error by analogizing missle defense - a system designed to render "weapons of mass destruction" ineffective - is unpersuasive. Again, there are legitimate arguments to be made on the wisdom of missile defense, but equating them with weapons of mass destruction is not one of them. Your argument is rather like saying - cops shouldn't wear bullet proof vests, it just encourages some criminals to buy bigger guns to try and defeat them.

In case it wasn't obvious, one of the simplest ways to negate the advantage of missile defense is to overwhelm the system. By simply putting more missiles in the air, you'll guarantee that a certain number of them will get through. So a missile defense shield doesn't make "weapons of mass destruction" ineffective, it just guarantees that there will be a whole lot more of them around.

Also, every time I've heard the term "weapons of mass destruction" it has also included bioweapons, which no missile defense shield can protect against.

Oh, and the criminals don't need bigger guns. They just need pointier bullets.

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08-17-2001 05:58 PM

Burns
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

O.K. first question is: How many of you who dislike the state of the United States have ever LIVED in another country? I grew up overseas, in one of the most corrupt countries with a one-sided government. Anyone who spoke against the leaders were imprisoned or were amazingly killed in some accident. The level of corruption in the U.S. is incredibly minute compared to other countries around the world.

As far as missile defense and weapons of mass destruction go, how many of you making comments know someone who works in this arena? Well, as a matter of fact, I do: me. The missiles used in missile defense are NOT weapons of mass destruction. Bush is infact in favor of cutting back on the number of nuclear weapons in the U.S.

As far as the military goes, I think many people take for granted that the U.S. is a super power. How did we become a super power? It wasn't with a military the size we have now, thanks to Clinton. Our military is in trouble as far as size goes as it is right now because of how much Clinton desimated it (he cut back the size of the military for those of you who don't know). These soldiers protect the way of life of this country and they deserve more respect and admiration and support than most U.S. citizens give them.

In reference to the dealth penalty: What would you rather happen to a convicted murderer: 1) Punishment for the crime he/she has commited in direct proportion to the crime; 2) Confined leisure living with much of the same niceties of life that you and I enjoy like cable TV, internet, etc.

First of all, it costs an incredible amount of money to keep them in prison for their lifetime sentance.

Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment, for those of you who are professed religious. Just look at the Old Testament in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, etc. Capital punishment was actually used in many more crimes than what it is today in the U.S. If you are a professed Christian, there is even more support for capital punishment that goes above and beyond the law of Moses. If you believe the Bible, then you should know the verse that says "The wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." In other words, everyone is a sinner, and anyone that sins is convicted and sentenced to death. Only belief and trust in Jesus Christ as the one who has taken that sentance in place of you will save you from that death penalty.

Ok, enough of Biblical reference. [if anyone wants to discuss the biblical aspect of this further, please do not do so in this thread, I'll start another thread. just click]

China's human rights violations are not comparable to capital punishment in my opinion. The government supported killings that take place are not necessarily murderers or even criminals as we see them. They could be people that have spoken a word against the government in public. They could be children that happen to be an addition to a family that already has the government limit of children. The capital punishment issue isn't the only aspect of the human rights violations in China. I'm not going into them because they haven't been brought up yet.

Well, that's all from me for now.

[THE ABOVE COMMENTS ARE OPINIONS OF THE POSTER AND ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE OPINIONS OF THIS BOARD OR ANYONE ELSE POSTING ON THIS BOARD]

- Burns

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Last edited by Burns on 08-17-2001 at 06:15 PM

08-17-2001 06:01 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment, for those of you who are professed religious. [...][if anyone wants to discuss the biblical aspect of this further, please do not do so in this thread, I'll start another thread. just look for it]

Well, start it up. It's bad enough that people go around citing the bible is authoritative in policy decisions in a country whose gov't is supposed to be separated from religion... it's worse when it's misused (and I ain't Xn!).

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08-17-2001 06:06 PM

yardie
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster

I felt like responding to this comment as well. The point of who decided to have sex...etc. has already been made, and I agree with what dick-richardson has said. My biggest concern however does not just deal with the unborn child's mother. Where is the father? What upsets me more than anything today, is that when young girls get pregnant, the guy tends to disappear. If the couple is "adult enough" to have sex, then they should be "adult enough" to take on the responsibility of their actions. I wish more men would take on the responsibility of father. But no, they push all of the trouble onto the girl and walk away.

I agree with what you are saying here. But why is that Society holds a father responsible for support etc when the child is born but the father have NO SAY if a "baby" get aborted? Is this yet another double-standard in our society? Why is that a 14 year old cannot vote, cannot drink and cannot have sex with anyone older than 18 when they can be tried as adults and executed for their actions?

08-17-2001 06:20 PM

Burns
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

No matter what a minor may think, they are not mature enough, wise enough and informed enough to make the decisions of an adult. Of course the same can be said for SOME adults If, however, the minor purposely and conciously chooses to make an adult decision to commit a crime that results in adult circumstances, that person is responsible for making that adult decision and, in my opinion, should be punished the same as an adult.

- Burns

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08-17-2001 06:28 PM

PDAENVY
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Posts: 790

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
All world leaders are hypocrites. They're human. Why should a title give some schmuck any more intelligence/wisdom/whatever than the rest of the dregs that are humanity?

If you are stating that being a world leader necessarily makes you hypocritical, I must disagree.

President Carter, while most people would agree was an ineffective president a best, was and is one of the most humble national/world figures. His religous conscience has led him to make major contributions to less priviledged people in the US through Habitat for Humanity. When he broke with the branch of the Baptist Church that he had been with for decades, it was because he believed that some of their tenets were ethically wrong and rather than accept dogma he chose to persue his strong faith elsewhere. His efforts in negotiation post-presidency also appear to be out of genuine concern.

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08-17-2001 06:36 PM

RSGMOOSE
Member

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

Ok I'll jump in here!

Here are some things to ponder:

1. Perhaps Dubya's thinking on missile defense is: If we build a defense system that shows we can shoot down other's missles then mayben the others will think it futile to build the first missles since they can be shot down and Russia went broke trying to keep up with the US in the cold war. Therefore, the other's won't waste their dollars on building and escalating because America has proven that we will not stop on spending for Defense (or offensive) weapons.

2. Capital Punishment: We do "kill" more people than perhaps other countries however they are typically tried and convicted and it takes on average 10 to 14 years for the capital offense to be carried out. Now in Somalia the ethnic cleansing there took the lives of 2 Million and who was the judge and who was the jury? Same thing in the greater Yugoslavia-Baltic issue the Milasovic (spelling) is being tried for.

3. Abortion: IMHO the women can choose to abort but should obtain legal permission from the father.

These are my opinions and I'm still thankful that I live in America because I know that the "secret police" won't show up on my doorstep tomorrow as a result. And consider that if Hitler had won the war or Japan, where would we be now? I'll accept this reality and not dwell on another.

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08-17-2001 06:37 PM

yardie
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Refreshing

I it refreshing to see an American critizing America for a change. I agree with most of what Dick had to say. America is not much better than the comuntries it ceriticizes. It does not practice what it preaches. Why is it that they still have that old ineffective embargo against Cuba, yet trade with CHina that have even worse human rights record (I know its teh trade...but its still hypocritical? Why is that America is full have talk about democracy around the world when they are and have propped up undemocratic and brutal regimes around the world?

The fact of the matter is that America cares about itself and itself only. They pretend to care about the world, but they only care about the parts of the world that can add their Gross Domestic Product.

As far the miiltary, the last thing America needs is more money in the military and a bigger army. If anything, the military should be reduced and the money goes towards the well being of people they are suppose to protect...like the beggars on the street in Manhattan and the old lady that cannot afford healthcare.

08-17-2001 06:37 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

There is a contradiction here:

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
No matter what a minor may think, they are not mature enough, wise enough and informed enough to make the decisions of an adult.

So you're saying that a minor is unable to makde adult decisions.

quote:
the minor purposely and conciously chooses to make an adult decision

But here you're saying that they are able to make adult decisions.

Which is it. Either they can't, and they shouldn't be treated as adults; or they can, and they ought to be.

Yardie is right, we're incredibly inconsistent with teenagers. If we give responsibilities, we must also give rights. Period.

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08-17-2001 06:38 PM

yardie
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Ha Ha

If that are old enough and wise enough to be accountable for their actions (ie to kill somebody). Then it is my opinion that they are old enough and wise enough to vote for the people who are sending them to jail and to drink etc. In Canada youths are not treated as adults until they are 18 years old. Even if tried as adults, kids are given "kiddie" sentences..not adult sentences. I think this should be the way to go.

BTW how comes an 18 year old can get married but he or she cannot drink in most states? How comes that same 18 year old can drive (putting other folks in potential danger) but cannot go to the Pub to order a beer to kill his/her brain cells?

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
No matter what a minor may think, they are not mature enough, wise enough and informed enough to make the decisions of an adult. Of course the same can be said for SOME adults If, however, the minor purposely and conciously chooses to make an adult decision to commit a crime that results in adult circumstances, that person is responsible for making that adult decision and, in my opinion, should be punished the same as an adult.

- Burns

08-17-2001 06:44 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

I think that teenagers are capable of making adult decisions. They do it all of the time. I feel as though they don't always think things through (this isn't true for all teenagers). I think parents need to do a better job raising their children so that they can make the correct decisions when they have to. If parents teach the right principles in their homes, their children will be more likely to make the right choices in their lives. Having said that, I think that once a young person makes a decision and acts on it, they are responsible to face the consequences. The laws are established to give the youth time to develop and mature and gain some responsibility before their desisions can ultimately change the course of their lives. If they choose to break the laws, they deserve whatever punishment the law gives.

08-17-2001 07:27 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
If you are stating that being a world leader necessarily makes you hypocritical, I must disagree.

I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. Do you believe that lying is bad? Have you never told a lie? Even a little white lie to spare somebody's feelings? "Honey, does my butt look fat in this dress?"

quote:
President Carter, while most people would agree was an ineffective president a best, was and is one of the most humble national/world figures. His religous conscience has led him to make major contributions to less priviledged people in the US through Habitat for Humanity. When he broke with the branch of the Baptist Church that he had been with for decades, it was because he believed that some of their tenets were ethically wrong and rather than accept dogma he chose to persue his strong faith elsewhere. His efforts in negotiation post-presidency also appear to be out of genuine concern.

Perhaps, but really irrelevant to what I was saying.

08-17-2001 07:55 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Ok I'll jump in here!

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
3. Abortion: IMHO the women can choose to abort but should obtain legal permission from the father.

I would agree only under the circumstance that the time period for carrying it out be until the age of 18 (or as long as they remain dependents). After all, they still aren't considered viable to survive on their own until this point.

08-17-2001 08:01 PM

bradhaak
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 380

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. Do you believe that lying is bad? Have you never told a lie? Even a little white lie to spare somebody's feelings? "Honey, does my butt look fat in this dress?"

HEAR HEAR!

When I first saw the title of this thread, my thought was that of course they are hypocrites - They're human (in most cases). The only problem that I had was limiting it to American politicians or even politicians in general.

Human beings are hypocrites and the scum of the Earth. Accept it and move on. Maybe make an effort to be selectively hypcritical in what you perceive as good causes, but that's about the best that you can do.

08-17-2001 08:20 PM

PDAENVY
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Posts: 790

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I stated no such thing, and to infer that I did is non sequitur at its finest. Closer to what I stated would be that being human makes one hypocritical. I have yet to ever meet any person whose actions never come into conflict with their words. ... Perhaps, but really irrelevant to what I was saying.

While my comments about Carter may not relevant to what you meant, they most certainly are quite relevant to what you posted.

Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Sure, we all lie. But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting. Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!

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Last edited by PDAENVY on 08-17-2001 at 08:57 PM

08-17-2001 08:47 PM

Yorick
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by Burns
Our military is in trouble as far as size goes as it is right now because of how much Clinton desimated it
desimated? he took out the monkeys?

These soldiers protect the way of life of this country and they deserve more respect and admiration and support than most U.S. citizens give them.
While I'm aware of the need for a strong defense, excluding times of war and/or police action many of us don't hear of the good things military personnel do on a daily basis.
If we could only have an equal amount of military and education funding, I'd be happier.

In reference to the dealth penalty: What would you rather happen to a convicted murderer: 1) Punishment for the crime he/she has commited in direct proportion to the crime; 2) Confined leisure living with much of the same niceties of life that you and I enjoy like cable TV, internet, etc.

Not having spent any time in a prison, I'm uncertain as to the EXACT conditions, but I'm pretty sure they don't get all of those benefits, and let's not forget most inmates are put to work in a variety of state projects or are "rented" to firms with specific types of needs ... like customer service and order taking.

Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment, for those of you who are professed religious. Just look at the Old Testament in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, etc. Capital punishment was actually used in many more crimes than what it is today in the U.S.
I feel the killing of another person as punishment is a barbaric and outdated practice. The Bible originates from a more barbaric time and should not be used as justification.

In other words, everyone is a sinner, and anyone that sins is convicted and sentenced to death.
Life is a deadly sexually-transmitted disease. Let's get our doctors to work on that, it has to be stopped.
C'mon, your statement is ridiculous.

Originally posted by bradhaak
Human beings are hypocrites and the scum of the Earth.
ayup. Need to do us some skimming.

Originally posted by PDAENVY
Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Sure, we all lie.
on a daily basis. starting with the aliases we use here (exclusing those not using aliases, of course)

But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting.
I was thinking "super-wide roller" myself.

Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!
I find the biggest problem with getting our elected officials to stick to what they say they're going to do is enforcing it. We, in the general sense, select our leaders based on what they say they will do for us, and presumably vote accordingly. Once they're in office they could do a 180 on their promises and there's little that can be done by the people (even impeachment is a Congressional act). People ***** and moan and complain about how the people in charge aren't doing what we elected them to do. I'm not sure how to change that, but I'd sure like to. (I'd also like a trip to Europe, a decent car and to be able to pay all of my bills every month, but hey, we all have needs.)

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