Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Me Tarzan. You Occupied.

Great.Here's a story with a quote from the current head of Iraq:

quote:

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_"We ought to be beating our chests every day. We ought to look in a mirror and get proud and stick out our chests and suck in our bellies and say: 'Damn, we're Americans!'," Jay Garner told reporters, saying that Iraq's oil fields and other infrastructure survived the war almost intact.

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With material like this, I don't even need to try to be sardonic.

...and now we're getting shot at by protesters and vice-versa, the sentiment there seems to be leaning towards a theocracy (which will quash one of the few states in that region that lets women have some freedom), and the Coalition of the [insert favored noun here] is backpedaling away from statements about WMDs.

...so now what? I'll admit I have no great ideas. All I can think is this: we need to keep the right-wing religious fanatics in check while still giving them a voice. What they need is a multi-party parlimentary government with proportional representation so no single group can keep control without making compromises and coalitions. (Heck, put it that way, and it sounds like something we ought to put together here, too.)

As long as I'm bringing stuff up: what about the UN? Should we let in inspectors in? Should they have voice in reconstruction (although it's a little late for that, *cough* Bechtel *cough*)? In government formation?

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Registered: Mar 2001
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Re: Me Tarzan. You Occupied.

quote:

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Originally posted by septimus
...and now we're getting shot at by protesters

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Registered: Dec 1999
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Do you know anything about Bechtel? The company may be based in the US, but when they do work overseas the majority of their workers and subcontractors (inc. engineers and project supervisors, and entire companies, etc.) are international and usually local. My dad used to work for them (out of Houston).

What's sardonic about about what Jay Garner said? Should we not be proud that Saddam wasn't able to destroy his own countries infrastructure? Or would it been better if America had been humbled because all those things (which had been predicted by those against coalitions actions) had happened?

Did protesters actually fire upon the troops. Was it a mistake (as dear Yorick says)? Or was it pro-Saddam forces stirring up trouble.

As to the theocracy issue, what you should be saying is those who have a vested interest in a theocracy and have any kind of a following are trying very hard to put themselves into the position to take advantage of the power vacumn. The US never planned for that kind of "freedom" as it would simply place another party in power that would marginilze a good deal of the Iraqi populance.

I don't happen to agree with you on the type of government that needs to be established as I feel that parlimentry governments are relics. Instead, how about a democratic republic? Seems to work well enough here.

Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

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Last edited by BobbyMike on 04-30-2003 at 04:20 PM

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Do you know anything about Bechtel?

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For what it's worth, I am defnitely proud to be an American. I am proud to support a country that (for the most part) stands up for the rights of the individual, both here and abroad. I'm proud to contribute to a power than can be leveraged for great good. I'm humbled by any and all efforts to use this power for other means (there have definitely been many examples of this).

Regarding Iraq, I'm proud to help bring freedom to a country long suffering. However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: the justness of this war has yet to be decided. It is the actions of the US after the fighting stops that will determine whether our actions were just.

If they end up just, I will be especially proud. If they end up criminal, I will be especially embarassed that such actions were carried out with my support.

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Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:

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Originally posted by septimus

I know they have a long history with iraq:

http://www.ips-dc.org/crudevision/index.htm

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Registered: May 2001
Location: NY metro area
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BobbyMike said: . . . I don't like the party politics (like the Dem. filibuster of the Judicial nominees) . . .
I wonder how you felt when the Republicans refused to have any hearings on almost all of Clinton's judicial nominees over an eight year period.

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Jonathan

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

quote:

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Originally posted by jhappel
BobbyMike said: . . . I don't like the party politics (like the Dem. filibuster of the Judicial nominees) . . .
I wonder how you felt when the Republicans refused to have any hearings on almost all of Clinton's judicial nominees over an eight year period.

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike


It's like a stupid game of tit for tat.

There should be a Supreme Court made up of thirds (liberal/moderate/conservative), but each of the parties is so idiotically num-skullish about the way they do business.

I have proudly registered as an Independent because voting along party lines only is, I feel, against everything this nation stands for.

You get ridiculous situations where a politician rants on about "having the freedom to disagree with an administration" while people protesting that politician are thrown out of the event. Politics have become, for the most part, less about actually achieving anything of lasting value and more about trying to make the other guy/gal look bad (while treading water so that you don't do too much to offend anyone).

But what do I know? I'm nuts. I joined the Marine Corp out of college because I felt it wouldn't be fair to vote in elections where I might help elect a president who might send our military off to war if I didn't really know what that would mean.

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

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Registered: Sep 1999
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Posts: 1883

But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

About the death toll, has anyone seen a number yet?
With all the bombing and rocketing I'd say the casualty rate will not be low...

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToolkiT
But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

About the death toll, has anyone seen a number yet?
With all the bombing and rocketing I'd say the casualty rate will not be low...

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quote:

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Originally posted by septimus
We'll probably never know for sure. After the first Gulf War, Powell said that "Such numbers didn't interest him"

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon

We'll probably never know for sure regardless of whether Powell has a burning, itching need to know or whether he is uninterested.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ToolkiT
But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike


You mean where they hid all the weapons? Too bad about the civil liberties of the Iraqis under Saddam. Oh never mind, he's gone now. As I've said before, it's very hard to get worked up about buildings when people (you know those unique, irreplaceable beings) are at risk. If Saddam was still around he would be killing and torturing his own, while still funding terrorism and research into new ways to kill yet more people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToolkiT

I wasnt refering to the bombing, I was referring to the looting...
Also do you know anything I dont? AFAIK they still haven't found any WMD..
And yes, people are way more important then building, however my post was a response on the chest beating quote because they saved the infrastructure... For me infrastructure goes beyond oil wells...

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Location: Houston, TX
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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike

Justify the lives that were taken??? I am in awe that people will still complain about the loss of life involved with this , but they will sit by and not think/say a thing about the loss of life that occurs when a madman is in charge. This idoit madman killed close to half a million (that's six zeros) of his people. He directly rewarded suicide bombers that killed Israeli civilians (by giving cash rewards to their families) and he was funding WMD research in his own country (even the UN doesn't dispute this).

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Well, half a million only has 5 zeroes.

I'm always amazed that this country doesn't do more to improve the quality of life around the world and save millions upon millions of lives. Merely doing things like ending agriculture subsidies that drive down the price of grain (you want to give farmers money--go for it--just don't do it in a way that affects the market price of their goods) and eliminating import quotas and tariffs we can lift income in the third world without any real outlay on our part. Simple things like that. If Bush sticks to his pledge for $15B to fund aids research, that is great as well. Problem is I'm not sure it was an honest move (as opposed to a political one) and I'm not sure if its going to be ongoing or a one off deal.

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I am sure that are millions of Americans who are ashamed because of their goverment's action in Iraq. I do not think there is anything to be proud of. The whole adventure in Iraq only proves that Saddam was no threat to anyone outside Iraq.

As for the Theocracy, I think the U.S. should realize that democracy is not the right solution for every country. But there is saying be careful what you wish for.... Countries where democracy truly works usually have a long history..and a mostly homogenous population to start with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BobbyMike


What's sardonic about about what Jay Garner said? Should we not be proud that Saddam wasn't able to destroy his own countries infrastructure? Or would it been better if America had been humbled because all those things (which had been predicted by those against coalitions actions) had happened?

Did protesters actually fire upon the troops. Was it a mistake (as dear Yorick says)? Or was it pro-Saddam forces stirring up trouble.

As to the theocracy issue, what you should be saying is those who have a vested interest in a theocracy and have any kind of a following are trying very hard to put themselves into the position to take advantage of the power vacumn. The US never planned for that kind of "freedom" as it would simply place another party in power that would marginilze a good deal of the Iraqi populance.

I don't happen to agree with you on the type of government that needs to be established as I feel that parlimentry governments are relics. Instead, how about a democratic republic? Seems to work well enough here.

Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

---

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Registered: Feb 2000
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I think you would be more accurate if you say that the U.S. stands up for the rights of the American individual. If you are muslim, Pakistani etc. the U.S. when stand up for your rights only if it matters.

quote:

---

Originally posted by KRamsauer
For what it's worth, I am defnitely proud to be an American. I am proud to support a country that (for the most part) stands up for the rights of the individual, both here and abroad. I'm proud to contribute to a power than can be leveraged for great good. I'm humbled by any and all efforts to use this power for other means (there have definitely been many examples of this).

Regarding Iraq, I'm proud to help bring freedom to a country long suffering. However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: the justness of this war has yet to be decided. It is the actions of the US after the fighting stops that will determine whether our actions were just.

If they end up just, I will be especially proud. If they end up criminal, I will be especially embarassed that such actions were carried out with my support.

---

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?